Standards of hygiene in the roman empire

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

More questions from me I fear

When it came to hygiene, we all know the romans had many innovations, such as an efficient sewage system, public baths, latrines (some of which had a flush mechanism through a channel or stream), etc.

But to a soldier, how would this be taken care of? We know most forts had a bath outside the walls (and sometimes inside as is the case in sctolamd and northen england), and that is was extremely cheap (not sure if for soldiers it was free - it should be seeing as they usually build it themselves), but would they go to the baths every day?

I know it was common practice for patricians, plebeians and so on, but was it also with soldiers? I imagine a daily visit would keep them quite clean, but what did they have in the way of preventing sweat and disguising odour? Today we have anti-perspirants and deodorants, one to prevent sweat build up and another to make us nice smelling. I am not aware they romans had anything to prevent sweat, but used olive oil, perfumes and so on to 'disguise' the smell.

We all know on a hot day, when you are sweating, and stay sweaty for hours, you stink. Its a fact of life. So for the romans, was there anyway to remedy this, or was it just a 'fact of life'? I imagine it would obviously would have been worse for soldiers, as indeed it still is today.

Also, how was clothing washed? With what was it washed? Just by a river side beaten against the rock or did they use anything else with it? Did they understand the link between cleanliness and sanitation, infection and so on? I remember reading something about it, but can't recall if they knew about infection or not.

I think thats about it.

Yuri

[Q. Vipsanivs Praetextatvs]

There were baths too near the castra, in the vicus, but in permanent castra only (that's logic).
And I supose that soldiers went when they had free time.
If there weren't baths, a river is a possibility I think... but a little dangerous in hostile lands.

They washed clothing normally with urine, because urine contains ammonia (they perfumed clothing after).

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Having been in the (Soviet) army and in situations where bathing was not readily available, I do not recall sweat or odor being the problem or something that anyone would even notice or care. Even in the garrison barracks with bathing facilities bathing and laundry was only done once per week, and that was perfectly normal.

[Urselius]

Chalk was used to finish the cleaning of togas for special occasions. Candidates for office wore whiter-than-white togas, in order to impress, which is how they got their name - from Latin candidus = white.

Perfumed oil was used for cleaning the body. I imagine if a bath-house or water wasn't available they would liberally smear themselves with scented oil and scrape it off by way of cleaning. Not altogether ineffective I would imagine - many of the body's most offensive odours are formed through the action of bacteria on lipid-rich skin secretions - these would be more oil soluble than water soluble. The barbarian invention of soap allowed such smelly secretions to be made water soluble, which is why we don't have a great layer of oily-scum floating on the top of our baths and the Romans undoubtedly did.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

There were baths too near the castra, in the vicus, but in permanent castra only (that's logic).
And I supose that soldiers went when they had free time.
If there weren't baths, a river is a possibility I think... but a little dangerous in hostile lands.

They washed clothing normally with urine, because urine contains ammonia (they perfumed clothing after).

I knew they had baths nearby stone forts, just wondered how often an auxiliary soldier would go? Every day, sometime as week? Also, THEY CLEANED THEIR CLOTHING WITH URINE???!!! lol... can't help but be a bit surprised, I thought barbarians mixed it with lime to make an impromptu gel, but that was about it lol... never knew it had 'cleaning properties' except for relieving sting pains and so on.

Having been in the (Soviet) army and in situations where bathing was not readily available, I do not recall sweat or odor being the problem or something that anyone would even notice or care. Even in the garrison barracks with bathing facilities bathing and laundry was only done once per week, and that was perfectly normal.

Wow, what a strange coincidence! I was just listening to the hymn of the soviet union! I read 'Soviet' in your post and had to double check to see if I wasn't imagining things. Hope you are not offended by this btw, I meant none.

Back to topic however, that is quite interesting. It is like I thought, it just wasn't a big problem. Just wanted to know the difference in standards these days and back then, if there even is a difference.

Perfumed oil was used for cleaning the body. I imagine if a bath-house or water wasn't available they would liberally smear themselves with scented oil and scrape it off by way of cleaning. Not altogether ineffective I would imagine - many of the body's most offensive odours are formed through the action of bacteria on lipid-rich skin secretions - these would be more oil soluble than water soluble. The barbarian invention of soap allowed such smelly secretions to be made water soluble, which is why we don't have a great layer of oily-scum floating on the top of our baths and the Romans undoubtedly did.

Interesting. I suppose we do not go to baths to get cleaned but for the sake of going (although I suspect this was the same for them). The difference being we clean ourselves BEFORE going in.

Also, how widespread was soap back then, and how did they produce it?

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

No problem, man, I do not mind my Soviet heritage at all, and I like the music myself. Once had it as my ring-tone. I believe the music is great for a national anthem, that is why Russia kept it.

[Memmia]

Hi, as well as urine and chalk, they used to bleach wool by burning sulphur beneath it! It bleaches at first, but too long over the sulphur and it turns yellow- not a good look for a candidate. :lol:

With the mixture of urine, sulphur and perfume, I can't help but imagine the smell to be a bit like that of a chemical toilet- like the sort found at festivals etc hock:

[Q. Vipsanivs Praetextatvs]

:lol: :lol:

Do you not remember the typical scene of a man urinating in a container near the entrance of a fullonica in Pompeii?

The princeps Gaius Iul. Caes., traditionally Calligula, established a tax to the urine.

[Sardaukar]

Urine was used especially to remove greasy stains, AFAIK, it works quite well...not going to experiment, tho... I'd imagine they washed the clothes normally after they have been treated with urine etc.... 8)

Actually, urine is supposed to be quite good for woulds too...but not going to experiment with that either... :twisted:

[Urselius]

Not only was urine used but it was well matured urine - the fresh stuff doesn't have the ammoniacal quality needed.

Early soap was made from a mixture of animal fat (tallow) and wood ash.

The origins are rather obscure but my bet is on the northern barbarians with their limited access to olive oil, and their probable use of tallow-dips for lighting.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

No problem, man, I do not mind my Soviet heritage at all, and I like the music myself. Once had it as my ring-tone. I believe the music is great for a national anthem, that is why Russia kept it.

Yep, it is a pretty good anthem.

Hi, as well as urine and chalk, they used to bleach wool by burning sulphur beneath it! It bleaches at first, but too long over the sulphur and it turns yellow- not a good look for a candidate. :lol:

With the mixture of urine, sulphur and perfume, I can't help but imagine the smell to be a bit like that of a chemical toilet- like the sort found at festivals etc hock:

Hahaha. Oh dear, not exactly the washing liquid I was imagining.

Not only was urine used but it was well matured urine - the fresh stuff doesn't have the ammoniacal quality needed.

Early soap was made from a mixture of animal fat (tallow) and wood ash.

The origins are rather obscure but my bet is on the northern barbarians with their limited access to olive oil, and their probable use of tallow-dips for lighting.

Yes I remember reading somewhere it was a barbarian 'invention' per se. I hear if you are in the woods and need toothpaste, the best combo is wood ash and strawberries. Not going to try it though lol... suppose its good for your teeth.

[arklore70]

I think we'd we'd really find folks of the era to be quite stinky by our current standards until we got "used" to the smell.

Mike

[Alan E]

I don't post often (this may be my first post here?) but I have to admit, this idea that ancient civilizations stank because they didn't use modern chemicals, is a bit of a bug-bear of mine. For a start, most of the real bad stinks and stains are chemically produced, often petroleum products: These are the ones which require powerful chemical suppressants. Most dirt (and yes, even blood) is fairly easily removed with oil or water, assisted sometimes by wood ash (the 'handy hand cleaner' of ancient times).

More questions from me I fear

When it came to hygiene, we all know the romans had many innovations, such as an efficient sewage system, public baths, latrines (some of which had a flush mechanism through a channel or stream), etc.

But to a soldier, how would this be taken care of? We know most forts had a bath outside the walls (and sometimes inside as is the case in Scotland and northern England), and that is was extremely cheap (not sure if for soldiers it was free - it should be seeing as they usually build it themselves), but would they go to the baths every day?

When I grew up (not all that many centuries ago), being clean did not involve scrubbing yourself and adding chemicals daily; I got into the habit of that because it was sold to me as 'what everyone does'. A few years ago (after an outbreak of excema) my doctor sent me to a dermatologist, who's first question was "Do you wash daily?" and his first advice "stop it, it's very bad for the health of your skin". Look around the 'net a little, you'll see there's plenty of support for his conclusions.

I know it was common practice for patricians, plebeians and so on, but was it also with soldiers? I imagine a daily visit would keep them quite clean, but what did they have in the way of preventing sweat and disguising odour? Today we have anti-perspirants and deodorants, one to prevent sweat build up and another to make us nice smelling. I am not aware they romans had anything to prevent sweat, but used olive oil, perfumes and so on to 'disguise' the smell.

No, we use antiperspirants and deodorants because a whole industry has grown up convincing us they are necessary. Antiperspirants are designed to block your pores and seal off your sweat-glands. As well as preventing your body from controlling its temperature properly, this causes the secretions of those glands to build up and thicken, causing all sorts of skin problems; it also causes the scents that the sebaceous sweat glands secrete to become stale, hence the need for deodorants. Incidentally, the process of natural selection (you believe in that right? t is modern and scientific) means that the scents secreted by your that are naturally attractive to humans (the musky scents of perfumes try to imitate them).

We all know on a hot day, when you are sweating, and stay sweaty for hours, you stink. Its a fact of life. So for the Romans, was there anyway to remedy this, or was it just a 'fact of life'? I imagine it would obviously would have been worse for soldiers, as indeed it still is today.

Fresh sweat is not unattractive, stale sweat is. Nowadays I work in a customer-facing role in enclosed office environments and bathe once a week again, I never use antiperspirants or deodorants (I avoid most commercial bath soaps) and never have a problem with BO. Fresh water washes off fresh sweat as and when necessary.

Also, how was clothing washed? With what was it washed? Just by a river side beaten against the rock or did they use anything else with it?

LOL!!! This one always gets me! What magic is there in a washing machine? It is a drum with (usually three) paddles in it. The task of these paddles is .... to beat your clothes in a soapy water solution. That is all it does, no technological marvels, nothing more than you could do beside a river, with a rock (just less effort).

Did they understand the link between cleanliness and sanitation, infection and so on? I remember reading something about it, but can't recall if they knew about infection or not.

I think thats about it.

Yuri

I think it's Vegatus that mentions the need to keep washing downstream from drinking sources - a standard work through the medieval period too; however I think it's fairly clear that (whilst they didn't have germ theory, or understand what was carried by 'bad air' and what was transmitted by insects) our ancestors knew a bit about sanitation, else cities would never have survived.

Urine was used especially to remove greasy stains, AFAIK, it works quite well...not going to experiment, tho... I'd imagine they washed the clothes normally after they have been treated with urine etc.... 8)

Actually, urine is supposed to be quite good for woulds too...but not going to experiment with that either... :twisted:

I think we'd we'd really find folks of the era to be quite stinky by our current standards until we got "used" to the smell.

Mike

They'd smell different for sure, but many modern washing products also use ammonia "(try googling "ammonia cleaner") often with a fashionable smell added - lately it appears to be lemon ... citric acid is incidentally a good cleaner, as is acetic. My guess is their kitchens would smell of vinegar overlaying ammonia, rather as modern ones smell of lemon overlaying ammonia.

[L C Cinna]

Having been in the (Soviet) army and in situations where bathing was not readily available, I do not recall sweat or odor being the problem or something that anyone would even notice or care. Even in the garrison barracks with bathing facilities bathing and laundry was only done once per week, and that was perfectly normal.

Oh I remember this as well...while at our homebase we took a daily shower but in the field.... :wink:

It all depends, usually when we stayed out for longer, like a week or something like that we build our camp near some water, like a river or something and went there in the morning to have a quick wash. I mean everyone sweats all day long anyway and you get used to that...washing in a river with minus 15 degrees outside is not that nice though...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Try Mr. Muscle bathroom cleaner.....actually smells more like an unflushed toilet than the toilet.... hock: :roll: