Roman Marines

[Anonymous]

Have we any idea how Rome's Marines were organised, uniformed and equipped? Were they citizen soldiers or auxiliaries? <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

That depends on the period.<br>
Simply put:<br>
Republican era: marines were withdrawn from the legions<br>
Empire: unclear if there were separate marines <em>at all</em>! <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[ambrosius]

During the Empire, would it be normal for Marines<br>
(Classiarii/Nautarum) to transfer from the fleet to<br>
the Legions, rather than vice-versa? I'm thinking<br>
of the Leg I & II Adiutrix, which were formed from<br>
two of the Roman fleets. Would it be true to say<br>
that Marines were a part of the auxiliaries, and as<br>
such, were non-citizens, paid less and had to<br>
serve 26/7 years rather than the 25 of the Legion-<br>
aries? So forming/recruiting into the Legions from<br>
the Marines would be a normal career progression.<br>
<br>
There's also a diploma, found on the beach at<br>
the Late Roman Shore Fort at Ravenglass in<br>
Cumbria. It names a cavalryman from the Cohors<br>
I Aelia Classica. This would indicate one of the<br>
infantry cohorts formed by Hadrian from elements<br>
of the Classis Britannica. It looks like Marines<br>
were thus recruited into auxiliary infantry/cavalry<br>
units, which may also have still retained their<br>
naval abilities (this being a coastal fort).<br>
<br>
Ambrosius<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

First off: the evidence of a distinction between Marines and sailors is minimal and ambiguous.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>During the Empire, would it be normal for Marines (Classiarii/Nautarum) to transfer from the fleet to the Legions, rather than vice-versa?<hr><br>
Normal? No, but naval personnel did on occasion transfer from the fleets to the legions. Legio I & II Adiutrix have been named. There are also the Cohors Nauticorum, Cohors I & II Classica (prolly different from Cohors I Aelia Classica), two bulk transfers to X Fretensis and some more.<br>
<br>
Naval forces had to serve 26 (27 after 207) years. There is no evidence for pay rates in the navy. And yes, promotion to the legions would be career progression, though couldn't be expected as normal.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>It looks like Marines were thus recruited into auxiliary infantry/cavalry units, which may also have still retained their<br>
naval abilities<hr><br>
I'd prefer to read 'Classica' as 'recruited from the fleet'. It would be taking things to far to say that they still retained ships. You'd expect references to them in inscriptions, for instance (and yes, I know those are rare for I Aelia Cl). <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[ambrosius]

<br>
Ave Jasper,<br>
<br>
No, I don't think you quite understood the question<br>
wich was: 'During the Empire, would it be normal for<br>
Marines (Classiarii/Nautarum - attested in inscriptions)<br>
to transfer from the fleet to the legions _rather_ than<br>
vice-versa?'<br>
<br>
We may not have pay rates for the navy, but we know<br>
that htey were (originally) recruited from non-citizens,<br>
and served an extended duty-tour, like the auxilia.<br>
So it's a safe bet that they were payed less than the legions (hence this career path being a progression).<br>
But is there any evidence at all of legionaries taking a<br>
pay-cut and/or giving up their citizenship in order to<br>
join the navy? (Or maybe we've invented a new form<br>
of punishment for legionaries - sending them to serve<br>
in the fleet?)<br>
<br>
Salve, Ambrosius <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

I did understand the question, but I tried to make clear that 'marines' may well be the wrong term. We simply do not know if there was such a thing as marines.<br>
If you mean general naval personnel, yes, it happened, but it's rare for the lower ranks. There are the legiones adiutrices, the cohortes classicae and a number of mass transfers to X Fretensis. Individual transfers were generally very rare and impossible (IIRC) before Antoninus Pius.<br>
There's no evidence for legionaries voluntarily transferring to the navy, but there are two examples of demotion to the navy, from Augustus's reign and Commodus.<br>
<p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hello you navy buffs........<br>
<br>
has anyone heard any news of the underwater excavations of the site of the sea barrle between Octavianvs vs Antonivs andCleopatra????<br>
<br>
last thing i heard was that they found it..........<br>
<br>
regds.....<br>
<br>
M.VB.M. <p></p><i></i>

[TONYDONOVAN]

I found the following information at the ancient library web site:

Classiarii or classici (from classis, a fleet). The crews of the Roman fleet. In the republican age the rowers (remiges) were slaves, and the sailors (nautai) were partly contributed by the allies (socii navales), partly levied from among the Roman citizens of the lowest orders, the citizens of the maritime colonies, and the freedmen. Under the Empire the fleets were manned by freedmen and foreigners, who could not obtain the citizenship until after twenty-six years' service. In the general military system, the navy stood lowest in respect of pay and position. No promotion to higher posts was open to its officers, as those were monopolized by the army. In later times, a division of the marines stationed at Misenum and Ravenna was appointed to garrison duty in Rome. This division was also used in time of war in repairing the roads for the armies. In Rome the marines were employed, among other things, in stretching the awnings over the theatre.

Hope it helps some. However, considering these posts are about 4 years old, probably an old subject now.

[Celtic505]

Would Roman Marines wear a different colored tunic from the armies? I know the tunic color is hotly debated already among the legions but is there any evidence of Roman marines wearing anything distinctive to show their differentiation? Seeing as I'm on my way to becoming a US Marine I think it would be cool to do an ancient version impression like my dad does for the civil war (he is in the Army as a Staff Sergeant and owns a civil war kit equivalent to his modern MOS, rank and awards)

[Tarbicus]

Would Roman Marines wear a different colored tunic from the armies? I know the tunic color is hotly debated already among the legions but is there any evidence of Roman marines wearing anything distinctive to show their differentiation? Seeing as I'm on my way to becoming a US Marine I think it would be cool to do an ancient version impression like my dad does for the civil war (he is in the Army as a Staff Sergeant and owns a civil war kit equivalent to his modern MOS, rank and awards)

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 6648#36648
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 3562#83562

[M. Demetrius]

Well, these folks can probably answer some of your questions about the ancient Marines.
http://www.mclm.com/
Give them a shout, and see if they say, OOO RAW back atcha.

[Celtic505]

Oorah indeed!! So it would be okay to wear a blue tunic as part of a Roman Marine impression? Nice.

[M. Demetrius]

Ay yi yi, don't get that war started again! Many people seem to believe that the Marines wore blue tunics.

Best and most sensible advice is, if you are attached to some group or unit, do what the leader of that unit says, since in many cases, there is no consensus across the reenactor community about tunic color.

Second best advice is if you're not in a unit, find out who is closest to you, and join up under the most equitable arrangement you can find. Your location flag says Ireland, and there is a legion in Ireland, so they'd be a reasonable choice, I'd say. If that doesn't work, there are several in Britain that might work for you. Throw your hat in the ring here on the forum, and someone will pick it up, odds are.

BTW, thank you for your service.

[Bran ap Maclou]

Hello,

As we thought one moment that seguntienses who kept the tractus armoricani shores are "marines" a friend wrote : "semper fidelis" behind his scutum as an hommage or a blink. But the truth is that we have no evidence except perhaps river patrolling and watching saxon pirates.

As late roman soldiers, we get our tunicas through a tax called "vestis militaris". So, almost everybody agree to say that we wear civil clothes.

Recently, I learnt that the color code of the (late civil) tunica was rather a matter of money and of prefered god (what about fashion ?). So, ok purpura is only suitable for emperors or royal characters. But red tunicas were honoring Mars, green for Venus, blue for neptune ...
So, the code for a late trooper is rather religious than the unit belonging. However, as we are supposed to be christians, it's a bit blur for us.

And probably that not everybody is able to choose the color of his tunica. There were probably some priorities in order to choose what the tax collector brought back. And officers were first...

Regards

[Celtic505]

I actually live in Syracuse NY now, I was living in Ireland for a while with my cousins but I'm a born and raised American.