Discipline given by the centurions

[Manius Scipio]

Hi to all, I'm new around here but I'm a great fan of the roman army. I would like to know how harsh was the discipline given by the centurions to the men, what kind of training was given to make the legionary a harsh man and a superior soldier. Someone can give me a clue? Cheers

[Carlton Bach]

Right. This is a hard question to answer, not least because we have so much evidence. The problem is that (IMO, and other people see this very differently), the Roman upper classes (and historians) bought into the mystique of their military's ferocious discipline much the same way the Royal Navy did in the 18th century. Thus, all the edifying stories they tell us about the Roman army's harsh discipline and unrelenting drill need to be taken with a modius castrense of salt.

Basically, Roman discipline was harsh. Polybius already records this approvingly (the way a Greek upper-class man accustomed to the in-your-face individualism of the hoplite tradition would). Very likely the Repoublican Roman legions enforced a degree of marching discipline and task assignment that was far better than what other armies managed, and this is likely what the Hellenistic kings had in mind when they raised troops 'on the Roman model'. Their combat training, on the other hand, was at that point likely unorganised and dominated by interpersonal dynamics of competition, muitual support and peer pressure (that is not a bad mix - some of the world's best warriors trained like this).

We have evidence for systematic training from imperial times, though a lot of this, too, is from Vegetius and goes on about how great things used to be in the past and how rotten they are now. I half suspect a military writer from the days of Servius Tullius, if we had one, would go on about how the stupid king ruined the army.

What is uncontroversial is that centurions had the right to strike their men, and that some did so with great enthusiasm. I think the story of 'alteram cedo' is in Tacitus and I'm too tired to find out right now. We also know that the rules on the books were quite strict and soldiers could be executed for infractions like sleeping on guard. Roman military law was big on making examples of people. How often they actually did, though - we don't know.

Similarly, it seems likely the Roman army had high standards of physical fitness. Exactly how high is hard to say, but even if we subtract considerabnle amounts of hyperbole from Vegetius, we are left with the impression they selected their recruits for the ability to live a strenuous life and do physically demanding things.

And this is where you have to strike your own balance. Like every military force, the Roman army must to a degree have believed its own mystique and tried to live up to it. At the same time, there are too many stories of legions going soft to regards this as an aberration. I rather suspect that Roman soldiers would be a bit of a disappointment to the modern school of discipline, loafing, shirking, wandering the countryside, doing all kinds of work other than drill and paint stuff. I very much doubt they shared their commanders' opinion that warm baths, solid buildings and properly cooked food constituted enervating luxuries, and few centurions would have enforced their powers to the hilt (in fact, it is likely many legionaries didn't see their centurions from one year to the next in the Principate). But they would have been proud of their strength and stamina, and unlike members of many semi-civilian male bonding groups, they had a reasonable idea of the 'real' standards out there. I think the best-trained legions were always those towards the end of a victorious campaign, under a beloved leader, the worst-trained those in long garrison duty, and the degree to which centurions enforced training standards would depend more on mutual group consensus than what they technically could do.

[Manius Scipio]

thank you Carlton, your answer was very helpful. Thank you, regards

[Magnus]

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Welcome to RAT!

[Matt Lukes]

IIRC, the story of "'alteram cedo" is one of a Centurio who is referred to (loosely) as 'fetch another' meaning another vitis because he had a tendency to break them striking his soliders. And the usual statement is that falling asleep on guard could result in one's contiburnium being the executioners by beating I think it was. Then there was decimation where one in ten men was executed (large-scale discipline). And as for training, the monthly 20-mile march is oft mentioned and the use of training shields and wooden swords twice the weight of the real thing so that the real things could be wielded with great ease is also a commonly used as a descriptor of why Roman soldiers were so tough.

I kind of hate to mention all these without proper references, but my notes are in a terrible mess and I can't immediately recall where they're from- maybe someone can help?