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Roman camp at Hedemünden near Göttingen.
#31
Here some pics from german news pages:<br>
<br>
<img src="http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,344451,00.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
here is one of the decorated dolabrae.<br>
<br>
<img src="http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,344453,00.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
here is another.<br>
<br>
<img src="http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,344459,00.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
a bolt head.<br>
<br>
<br>
<img src="http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,344446,00.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
lance head. Interestingly it has a prominent middle edge.<br>
<br>
<br>
<img src="http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,344455,00.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
some finds, unrestored.<br>
<br>
Have look at<br>
[url=http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/0,1518,294310,00.html" target="top]spiegel online article on roman camp (german)[/url]<br>
<br>
<br>
ghandi <p>CHASUARI - Germanic Warriors of 1st ct AD.<br>
www.chasuari.de </p><i></i>
Robert Brosch
www.chasuari.de">www.chasuari.de
Germanic warriors of 1st ct. AD

www.comitatus.eu">www.comitatus.eu
Network of germanic Reenactors of 1st ct. AD
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#32
Hi<br>
I see that the dolabra had two versions:<br>
1) the two blades are at 90 degrees (first photo)<br>
2) the blades are coplanar (second photo)<br>
Any comments?<br>
Any experience using the dolabra(s)?<br>
Why the two varieties?<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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#33
Number two would seem more appropriate to break hard ground since it's straight and the pick part is quite narrow?<br>
Maybe number two was faster to make too?<br>
But it's significant of the times that even for an ordinary tool like a pickaxe, the smith took time to put some decoration on it.<br>
That catapult bolt looks real mean, BTW.. Given the thickness of the shaft indicated by the diameter of the socket and the narrow point, plus the strenght of a torsion catapult behind, it's easy too imagine how a bolt like that could go clean through a body..<br>
Another BTW: what caliber is that bolt head?<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#34
Good question, you'd have to know the length of the lost wooden shaft to answer it!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#35
Folks...<br>
<br>
I got an Albion Dolabra head a few years ago and put a shaft on it. The Albion dolabra is solid, sharp and rough in appearance with a nice brass edge cover. (I don't know how to load an image).<br>
<br>
The standard hardware ax handle is 36", and has a bulge below the socket area. So. I looked at the handle length proportions on T's C [ obligatory remark on dangers of relying on sculpture ]. using an estimated height (6 Roman feet = 5' 9" to 5' 10", depending on who you cite, I measured three figures. The tallest I arbitrarily gave a height of 6 units, i.e. 6 Roman feet. I found the shortest to be 5.6 Roman feet. I found the dolabra head-to-shaft length to be approximately 1:2.5 on all three figures, in the same measurement units. Each head was 1 unit which should approximate 11 to 11.5 inches. With my dolabra head of 14", this left a shaft of 35" to be in proportion. Excavated examples (measured from scale drawings) range from 10.25" to 14". One example at just over 11" approximated 1 Roman foot, which leaves a shaft length of 29" (approximately). The length of a Roman foot seems to vary a little, so approximations should be within actual production standards, as such may have existed.<br>
<br>
On my dolabra I opted for a shaft of approximately 2.5 Roman feet, in this case 30 inches. The head is slightly larger in proportion, but I am 6 Roman feet, or a little less... so I kept proportion to the measured figures, more or less.<br>
<br>
Anyway. I found the length no problem to use in the garden and easier to use in confined spaces than a regular pickax. Getting roots out and just plain breaking up dirt was easy.<br>
My dolabra size also, I found out, is close to the size of the Forest Service fire ax, for whatever that is worth.<br>
<br>
The usefulness of the dolabra "around the house" was such that it got appropriated by my wife, and was in the process of being given to the mother-in-law when I had to hide it. Its usefulness as an entrenching tool is without any doubt, and it could certainly double as a weapon (which is why my mother-in-law didn't need to have one).<br>
<br>
Gaius<br>
Who eventually had his wife check the spelling because the spell check dohingus did not work. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gaiusdeciusaquilius@romanarmytalk>Gaius Decius Aquilius</A> at: 4/11/04 12:21 am<br></i>
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#36
Any new infos? Vincula posted good question, how about the dated pottery finds? Any terminus post quam non finds? <p></p><i></i>
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#37
I just still find it so totally amazingly wicked cool that after 2000 someodd years and all of the other wars, civilations and the usage of that land, and yet they manage to find this Roman stuff "just under the surface" That is just totally cool.<br>
<br>
And the condition these things are in! Holy wackomolly! I really like the Dolabra that has the mattock-shaped blade on the back end. (first pic) They look like they are fresh from the forge!<br>
<br>
I can't say enough how much I love my Albion Dolabra. I kinda wish they'd offer more variety what with all the newly found alternate designs, but I'm not complaining. All you have to do is just barely drop the pick end into the ground and the tool will plow in to the middle of the head and a pile of dirt flies out. Certainly purpose-built. It's not the prettiest piece of work, but much like a wild comparison to the USAF's A-10 Warthog, it's ugly but darnit does it get the job done!<br>
<br>
as for the whole "Varus" thing - I do wish people would relax, and just keep researching and when they do find more solid evidence proving or not, then I'll listen more closely. I think people are getting way too wound up over Varus and just too eager to label a spot and say "There it Is!" I'm just thrilled beyond anything that we are still finding Roman era stuff, it's more little pieces to the puzzle. Those eventually form bigger pieces. But hey what do I know? <p>-ANDY aka "Roman Dude" Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re<br>
<br>
www.higgins.org </p><i></i>
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#38
i think that wasnt mentioned...<br>
<br>
The local archeologist of Göttingen Klaus Grote said that there are actually at least two and maybe four camps at Hedemünden.<br>
Camp I: the mentioned 320x150m or 3,2ha main camp with still clear visible wall, fossa and four gates, some 65-90m north of the historical ford across the Werra. It contained tents and wooden houses. Grote thinks it was a supply camp with a standing crew of 50-120 men.<br>
Camp II: south of Camp I even closer to the Werra, the wall remnants are only 40cm high today. Here a dolabra was found.<br>
I and II were secured by catapults, the bolts suggest.<br>
Camp III: in the west of the main camp. There are no special features in the country, but here many objects were detected.<br>
Camp IV: only suspected; in the east of the main camp there are some strange surface manipulations, like terraces. Grote thinks it possible that here a 7-8ha big marching camp was situated.<br>
<br>
the date:<br>
Most probably is a connection with Drusus campaign 9 BC. But still a connection with the Varus campaign or the ones by Germanicus 15/16 is possible.<br>
<br>
Someone said there were only 50 finds. Thats not true. Until now there have been 250 finds, including 100 metal objects from a roman background.<br>
<br>
Hope that helps,<br>
Natuspardo <p></p><i></i>
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#39
Actually, the Weser and the Werra are the same river and probably were regarded as such in Roman sources.<br>
<br>
Mediaeval chartes have Wesera/Wisera along the entire river. Now, in some German dialects something called rhotazism occured, that is a <s> or <z> between two light vowels changes into <r>. With the stress on the first syllable, the Werera soon was contracted into Werra, whereas the northern German Wesera only changed the strong final <a> into a weaker <e>. The fact that the Fulda flows into the Weser then marked this as the border for the name change, but linguistically, the poem on that stone is invalid.<br>
<br>
The *uis- root for the word goes back to the Ancient European Hydronymy and is related to words like Whisky (uisge), meaning simply "water". <p> <img src="http://otherworldfantasies.com/gabriele2/eilean_small.jpeg"/> </p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gabrielecampbell>gabriele campbell</A> at: 7/10/04 1:40 am<br></i>
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#40
I don´t know if this was mentioned already. This thread is age old. But here is a pictured link to the official german HP for the Hedemünden camp:
[url:am6lgx7f]http://www.grote-archaeologie.de/roemer.html[/url]

Also a german book has been published.
[Image: buch.jpg]

Have some pics:
[Image: Lanzenspitzen.jpg]
[Image: katapultbolzen.jpg]




ghandi
Robert Brosch
www.chasuari.de">www.chasuari.de
Germanic warriors of 1st ct. AD

www.comitatus.eu">www.comitatus.eu
Network of germanic Reenactors of 1st ct. AD
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#41
I refer to the first photo of a bolt head that was posted by Ghandi..

Are we certain that it is a bolt head and not a ferrule for a spear?

The same type of artifact displayed at the Museum und Park, Kalkriese is in the same display case as the spear heads and butt spikes(?)
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#42
Thats exactly what I was thinking Peronis, that it was from a spear, or if its larger the point from a piling beam.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#43
Hi!
Peronis, didn´t we meet at Kalkriese 2003? I was there with my group of germanic warriors.

The object in question, is four sided (pyramidal) towards it´s point. That´s why it is regarded as a bolt head. It is not easily recognizeable on the photo. There are a number of "spear ends" from the site, which are simplier made.


ghandi
Robert Brosch
www.chasuari.de">www.chasuari.de
Germanic warriors of 1st ct. AD

www.comitatus.eu">www.comitatus.eu
Network of germanic Reenactors of 1st ct. AD
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#44
Thanks Ghandi,

Yes we did meet at Kalkriese 2003, we looked for you in 2005 too!
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#45
Quote:Hi!
Peronis, didn´t we meet at Kalkriese 2003? I was there with my group of germanic warriors.

ghandi

I should read the member information more often. So, you're in Göttingen, too. And I bet you're the one who preorders all those Roman books from the UB that happen to sit on my desk. Big Grin
[Image: Atrectus.jpg]
centurio pilus prior cohortis Primus Tungriorum peditata
AKA Gabriele Campbell
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