About Ulfhednar (continued)

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Hi Stefan,

I meant the symbol of the swastika, not Ulfhednar. On the subject I can only further say that from my own experience I have found the members of Ulfhednar, friendly, respectful, willing to share knowledge and obviously very passionate about what they they do.
best wishes
Dave Huggins
Jorvik Vikingr

[Redwald]

Hello Stefan,
Forgive me if I misinterpret what you say -- your English is much better than my German. However, I suspect that some of what you say comes across as much more severe than was your intention.
I have not found the members of Ulfhednar to be arrogant or unfriendly to the public, quite the reverse.
You are right that counting swastikas is pointless -- I do note however, that at least one other German, Allemanic group uses one prominently displayed.
It is difficult to see how your group has been damaged by the Ulfhednar situation if you are getting four times as many contacts from organisers.
I don't know what 'hickhack' means - nor this:

A problem in making a difference between intime and outtime, maybe?

It seems to me that your group, the others listed on your site and Ulfhednar are all doing the same job and have much more in common than differences.
Do you know anyone in Ulfhednar? Have you spoken to them?


Paul

[Sascha]

I don't know what 'hickhack' means - nor this:

Hick hack, is when a lot of people making trouble, out of their own small point of view, more like a Kindergarden, not like adult people.
All want to get a piece of the cake and getting lost in details.
“stitch and biteâ€

[Ulfwin]

Hello Paul,

sure you are right that the use of other languages is tricky. The mentioned arrogance is not towards the public. As I told in the thread about the Aachen Declaration, I had watched the Ulfh. at the Ellwangen Museum and found them really good, including the public adress. The arrogance is not my own experience, but of their neighbour group, with whom they obviously didn't want to speak. But sure it is always two sides. Another thing I will not spread in the public, I send you a PM. I didn't talk to Arian himself, but I shared a campfire with two prospects who were more in "boah, fighting, Wollin, hard stuff, ey" than in archeology and I know an ex-Ulfhednar. However, their public work is fine!

Here comes the "intime/outtime": like in roleplaying, it seems to me that part of the communication should take place as a "normal" person, "outtime", i.e. "leaving your character and return to the 21st century". Some problems may be caused by a "warrior" attitude even in modern talk. I watch it at myself, that the years of being chieftain of my folks have a certain effect on my character. Has got nothing to do with history, but one grows with the responsibility. I imagine, that for a merovingian warrior haughtiness is no flaw, but a virtue, and that can make it difficult to be diplomatic and say sorry for the swastika or whatever. Could I explain my "intime/outtime"?

The damage done to "us". Oops, I meant the "we" / "us" more general to the whole lot of German living history groups, including the Ulfhednar, too. It is just, that many museum bosses talk about IF they can still engage reenactors at all, because of the Nazi trouble. Therein is a certain danger that museal living history may become outfashioned, but the imo greater danger that it gets in the hands of some selfmade "chosen ones" and that bureaucracy thing I mentioned in the other thread. Damage, hmm. It is somewhat caused by that tattoo story, but also done by the following debate. Not the serious part, but the "hickhack" part.

Hickhack. How to translate that? My dictionary says "argy-bargy" or "squabbling". I hope that meets the point. When the discussion leaves the subject and ony goes "but you said that, I said that, last year you said that, ... there has a green bottle fallen from the wall" and you think, next they start throwing sand at each other and run back to Mom.

I do not have 4 times as many contacts, but, by the same amount of events, four times as much communication with the organizers. But right, that is a positive effect, because I always suffer, when I feel that I am not seen. :wink:

That alamannic group, displaying the swastika. I thave two in my mind, one is just one man, the other one is a big group, displaying a swastika on a shield inspired by the same phalera as the Ulfhednars' inspiration. Ah, dsiplaying it in the newest exhibition. Funny, isn't it. When one of my own men came to the battlefield with swastikas on his shield, I also said " come on, you can't do that" but I left it to the battle-organizer to forbid him that shield. You see, I am not too itchy about that symbol in early historical context, but - in my country- it should be better treated with care.

So far,

cheers,

Stefan

[authun]

Guat's Tägle Ulfwin,

Are you from the Römerstein that used to be called Donnstetten?

It's been a long time since I have been there. If so, is the Grüner Baum still there? It had the nickname 'Rusty Colts' and was run by three old women with snow white hair in those days.

Guat's Nächtle,

[Ulfwin]

Yes. You got PM.

[authun]

And we must disagree on the resemblance of the flags - the example that you show is not like the Ulfhednar flag - the predominant colour is red - the Ulfhednar flag is black and the symbolism is different. I really don't know why you show the Danish, Schalburg Korps flag at all. My original point still stands - the Ulfhednar flag is based on Roman prototypes.
However, I do recognise and have already stated that sensitivities regarding the swastika are comparatively greater in Germany than in England and that caution is necessary. However, most of the swastika forms used by Ulfhednar --(in fact all )-- are not the same types as the nazis used.

Hi Paul,
It's not our opinions on the stylistic differences or how these should be interpreted that matters. It's what the perception is that is important and the trouble that might cause. There's a row in Israel every time an orchestra wants to play Wagner for example. As Robert says, some tact is called for.

Arian is quite capable of explaining himself. On this photo we see him being interviewed and presumably, explaining why the Ulfhednar flag and the Nazi flag are not the same. Click on the thumbnail on the right under Fotos zum Thema [url:l9hviw9f]http://chronico.de/erleben/menschenorte/0000489[/url]. The parallel has been drawn and, whether correctly or incorrectly, it needs to be addressed. You know yourself that in the UK re-enactors have to be very careful with knives, even though they are not actually illegal. Gangs of teenagers have nothing to do with what we do, but the day will come when we may suffer for their actions.

This is Stefan's point too. EXARC is the international organisation of Archaeological Open Air Museums and other facilities involved in Experimental Archaeology. They already make the statement:

EXARC is worried about examples like the German living history group Ulfhednar, who are internationally active. ... Already for a long time, Ulfhednar has stood out for their heavy use of symbols, which are else known from the Nazi Era of the 3rd Reich.
http://www.exarc.eu/about_us/history/index.html

EXARC do point out that other groups, such as Steffan's with a similar name do not cause any concern, but that particular message tends to get ignored when venues decide to play it safe and just steer clear of controversy.

You obviously feel the need to explain that Ulfhednar are not some sort of group of neo-nazi sympathisers. I haven't heard any member say anything political either. But, there are neo nazi groups who are impressed with Ulfhednar and describe Arian as 'our friend'
[link to websites removed by moderator]

Support from sites such as this is going to do much more damage than someone like Prof. Dr. Albrecht Jockenhövel's Mannheimer Erklärung. Arian's critics are not going to draw on what is written in a forum such as this but will draw on the sort of comments displayed on the Europa NS site. You made the point yourself that the man with the tatoo was not a member of Ulfhednar. It doesn't matter if people like him are attracted to their events. Any intellectual argument about the use symbols which are stylistically roman in origin are bound to be undone with comments such as 'we must help this man, circulate this... NOT on jew myspace, email to your friends....'. Ulfhednar's detractors are not as damging as their supporters.

best

[Arthes]

I just posted this as a reply in the previous thread:

Hmm, see what you mean. Not my period, though, so tough to judge.


However, they still seem to be around.

(Not directed at Caballo - just commenting on the thread and picture)
Take a look at these....
[url:3aygplhk]http://flagspot.net/flags/fi%5Eafsq.html[/url]
[url:3aygplhk]http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/Flags/fi-pres.html[/url] Also very similar to the one used in 1920-1944, 1946-1978

Does that mean the President of Finland and their Air Force are some sort of neo Nazis...??

The Cross of Freedom (seen in the top left of the President's flag
[quote]The Cross of Freedom is the oldest order in Finland and the President is it's Grand Master. The cross can be described as a yellow swastika on blue cross pattée, in the center a yellow heraldic rose.

The basic design of the Cross of Liberty, the George Cross (croix pattée aux bords rectilignes) seems to have been a natural choice. Its beautiful, symbolical plain shape, connected well to ancient Finnish symbols, and the same type of cross was also used in the two other Finnish Orders for Merit, the Finnish White Rose (1919) and the Finnish Lion (1942).

The final shape of the Cross of Liberty came to consist of two crosses, one superimposed on the other, the lower cross symbolising victory, and above it the straight swastika symbolising sun's rays.

Source: Vapaudenristin ritarikunta – Isänmaan puolesta (The Order of the Cross of Liberty – For Fatherland, published by the Order, printed in Porvoo, Finland 1997) – from chapter "English summary" on page 248
Ossi Raivio, 24 October 1998, 26 October 1998

[Sascha]

Arthes, your linked flags are far away from the shown in the picture.
This one catches it more, the LSSAH (google picture search)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/1._SS-Panz ... olf_Hitler

Some colours (diefferent arranged), central cross with a second figure in it and with little crosses in the corner.
I think this design is the father of the Ulfh. Groupflag.
If it states anything about the people itself I can not say.
But it is little bit worse to copy such designs in Germany and believe nobody would care about it.

[Caius Fabius]

Sascha,

Most people put a signature block in their posts with their name (forum rules) If Sascha is your name, it would still make my job as a moderator easier if you would create a signature block, please.

We understand that there are different rules in Germany, but that is modern convention and prejudice against a symbol that has many meanings in Asian, European and North American history for thousands of years prior to the mid 20th century.

[authun]

But Germany is not Finland Arthes. Use of the swastika was banned by the Allied Control Council in 1945 and forbidden by the german constitution when it was written in 1949.

Arian Ziliox is quite correct to point out that the swastika has not always been a symbol of hate and racism. We have in Yorkshire for example the two swastika stones in Ilkley dating back to the bronze and iron ages. We find it on many cinerary urns in the Yorkshire Wolds during the migration period. The symbol dates back to neolithic india. But, that's not what all the fuss was about.

The problem was caused by a young man displaying an SS tattoo, 'Meine Ehre heißt Treue'. Use of the Swastika in Germany is allowed in a historical context but this man used the similarity between the Ulfhednar standard and the Leibstandarte-SS Adolph Hitler to make some sort of political point or cock a snook at the authorities. He wasn't a member of Ulfhednar and was roundly condemned by Arian but, if Ulfhednar events attract these sort of individuals, there will be trouble.

And it's not just individuals. You can see from the Europa NS site above that this group of neo nazis feel they should come to Arian's aid. He didn't ask them to, they just think he is a fellow sympathiser. If those sort of groups start turning up at events, then so too will the antifa groups. Event organisers will simply steer clear of trouble and not book them. Ulfhednar is in danger of being hijacked in this respect.

best

[authun]

We understand that there are different rules in Germany, but that is modern convention and prejudice against a symbol that has many meanings in Asian, European and North American history for thousands of years prior to the mid 20th century.

It's not just in Germany, it has been an issue raised in the UK too. WW2 re-enactors have been criticised both in the press and on TV.
Weekend Nazis have ways to make you shiver
[url:2m0z1sm8]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2327844.ece[/url]
BBC Weekend "Nazis"
[url:2m0z1sm8]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007y5v0[/url]

best

[Sascha]

Sascha,
We understand that there are different rules in Germany, but that is modern convention and prejudice against a symbol that has many meanings in Asian, European and North American history for thousands of years prior to the mid 20th century.

Nothing against the symbol, but in this case the ante type is obvious.
I do not know why Ulfh. did it so.
The aftermaths are given by authun.
I was in Paderborn and my personal sight is, that the Ulfh are no political group, not more than any other group, but they used to be trifle and carefree with using symbols.
Arian was not able to persuade anyone that the Group use the swastika in a way of reconstruction elder things but glueing it on anything and anywhere he could put on.

[Arthes]

We understand that there are different rules in Germany, but that is modern convention and prejudice against a symbol that has many meanings in Asian, European and North American history for thousands of years prior to the mid 20th century.

It's not just in Germany, it has been an issue raised in the UK too. WW2 re-enactors have been criticised both in the press and on TV.
Weekend Nazis have ways to make you shiver
[url:3exd1eni]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2327844.ece[/url]
BBC Weekend "Nazis"
[url:3exd1eni]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007y5v0[/url]

best

I have to admit the Rommel Panzer Dvision guys gave me a very edgy and uncomfortable feeling wearing that uniform of theirs :? )
Somebody has to portray what is viewed as 'the enemy' (depending on your viewpoint) after all and most of these guys are no more Nazis than Confederate soldiers are all racist.

[Robert Vermaat]

This weekend we did a multi-period event at Fort vechten. The tower was surrounded by Romans, the fort was full of WW2 groups and later. We all did a rollcall with all the groups, twice a day. There was a Dutch group portraying German troops for the first time, a few paras but most a sort of Wehrmacht (but they looked more like a 'Darm und Magen' battalion..).

It was hard to see them as 'the enemy'. Anyway, we were together with the Minervii, Late Romans from Germany. And of course the 'real' Germans were kinda amused... :wink: If only about the accent.