Triballi sarrissa

[sitalkes]

I have found a textual reference to Thracian cavalry with lances. Minor M. Markle says in his article "Use of the Sarissa by Philip and Alexander of Macedon" (p 490) "... the conclusion is inescapable that in 339 BC the Triballian cavalry were armed with sarissas." He is referring to a passage by Didymus "He (Philip) received his third wound during the foray against the Triballi, when one of his pursuers thrust a sarissa into his right thigh and made him lame" Justin adds "... Philip was wounded in his thigh in such a way that his horse was slain through his own body" Markle says " Surely, Philip fleeing on his horse cound not have been wounded by a Triballian infantryman chasing him with a long lance. If Philip was mounted so must have been his pursuer." He's got a point but I don't necessarily agree with this - such a wound would have to have a lot of force behind it, which might be more easily achieved by an infantryman. Maybe a thigh is easier to reach from the ground. Also, would a man on horseback go for a thigh, would it not be easier to strike for the back or some other, larger area? Possibly the lance was being held low down, parallel to the horse, as shown in many paintings, so this might result in a thigh injury. At the same time, the thigh injury must have been minor as a cut to the femoral artery would quickly kill. Anybody got any ideas about this?

[Komanos]

The thigh and the body of the horse would likely be an easier target than the profile of a torso. Or, if Philip were carrying a shield, which I'm not saying is likely or not, aiming below it toward the thigh would also make sense. And while he's being pursued, we needn't just imagine pursuers following behind him, its probably preferable to imagine riders taking angles at his horse.

[PMBardunias]

At the same time, the thigh injury must have been minor as a cut to the femoral artery would quickly kill

Philopoemen had both his thighs pinned together with a shaft and survived, there is a lot of meat in the thigh. We have discussed this passage before on here if I recall and their is some other interpretation, but my recollection is faulty. I think it was Paul McDonnell-Staff (Paullus Scipio) who told me of this, so maybe PM him.

[hoplite14gr]

Pilopoimin incident is discused in his biography by Plutarch.

As fot thre Philip incident there is no eye witness.
I donot rule out the chance that the sarisaa blade hit the horse near the rider's thigh and cat Philip also because it had the necessary width.

Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

'sarissa' is a non-greek word, quite possibly of Thracian origin, and originally meant simply 'long spear'.
It came to be used of the two-handed pikes which the Macedonian Phalanx carried in pitched battles ( they almost certainly used the handier dual-purpose longche short spear in other situations) Some Macedonian light cavalry were nick-named sarissaphoroi(long spear carriers)....but this does not necessarily mean they carried or used the infantry two-handed pike, but rather, "long spears".....no Depictions of Macedonian cavalry show them with anything longer than the 12 ft(3.6 m) xyston, used single-handedly. Even the later two-handed heavier Lance nicknamed 'kontos'(bargepole) was only 12 ft(3.6 m) long..........

The Triballi weapon in question, then, is likely to have been a long lance ( up to 12 ft) used single-handedly......

[Aryaman2]

BTW what is the earliest record of the use of two-handed lance for cavalry?

[Komanos]

Hmm...its likely to be pictoral, and its likely to come from the steppes.

[philsidnell]

sitalkes\\n[quote]If Philip was mounted so must have been his pursuer... He's got a point but I don't necessarily agree with this - such a wound would have to have a lot of force behind it, which might be more easily achieved by an infantryman. Maybe a thigh is easier to reach from the ground. Also, would a man on horseback go for a thigh, would it not be easier to strike for the back or some other, larger area? [\\quote]

We needn't take 'pursuer' so literally to mean a straight chase from behind. In a confused battle, Philip could have been caught while riding past an enemy on foot, or indeed while turning his horse to begin his retreat/flight.

That said, I would have said a lancer moving at speed could generate the necessary impetus at least as easily as a footman. Also, just because Philip was hit in the thigh does not mean this was the intended target. The horse could well have been the target, or any other part of Philip, it just happened to be his leg that got in the way.

Just my thoughts, though not very useful one way or the other.

Phil Sidnell

[Paralus]

'sarissa' is a non-greek word, quite possibly of Thracian origin, and originally meant simply 'long spear'.

Quite. Thracians are attested carrying spears near to twelve feet at the end of the fifth century. Indeed, they are claimed as the inspiration for Iphicrates’ mercenary unit. Spears of this length were not unusual.

Macedonian light cavalry were nick-named sarissaphoroi(long spear carriers)....but this does not necessarily mean they carried or used the infantry two-handed pike, but rather, "long spears".....no Depictions of Macedonian cavalry show them with anything longer than the 12 ft(3.6 m) xyston, used single-handedly...

Totally agree. This has been discussed in another thread – either here or at Pothos or both. Gets hard to remember. There isn’t enough decent artistic evidence but it would seem a counter weighted spear held at about the one third mark.

The Triballi weapon in question, then, is likely to have been a long lance ( up to 12 ft) used single-handedly......

Hammond (Philip of Macedon) takes a somewhat different view and suggests Philip was pinned to his horse by friendly fire. That is a possibility in the melee I’d think