Mail vs. arrows - later example

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

10 lb bow hock: ? Do you mean a 100 lb bow?

No... 10lb... all the Pueblos did was mostly shoot at jackrabbits or each other. Others had more robust equipment.

It is possible that the Romans ran into lithic points on the fringe of empire. I think that some sub-Sahara groups never used anything else. But I do think testing should be done with iron tips and stronger bows (30 to 60 lb.) if anyone wants to make a point... no pun intended...

Ralph

[Robert Vermaat]

How do we put alternate examples of ancient and historical warfare into the forum, without losing them in Yuotube funnies and other irrelevant topics?

Discuss them in a Roman context. if not, it's just discussing later weapons. We could discuss firearms here, and the effects they would have had on a seg. Still OT.

[D B Campbell]

I thought this complemented other discussions of armour needing to be supplemented by an outer garment at Dyrrhachium, in order to protect against enemy arrows.

In an attempt to drag this thread Romanwards, I consulted William Duncan's 1856 translation of Caesar's De bello civili 3.44, and found this wonderful phrase:

Pompey's archers "wounded great numbers of our men, and occasioned such a dread of their arrows, that almost all the soldiers furnished themselves with coats of danger". Coats of danger?!

The French Bibliotheca Classica Selecta version of 1865 isn't much better:

"La plupart s'étaient fait des tuniques de cuir ou de pièces de diverses étoffes, pour se garantir de ses traits". Diverses étoffes?!

Isn't there a decent online translation of Caesar?!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmm, the penguin classics translation was more believable.... :lol:

Unfortunately, I cannot recall it word for word....

[Tarbicus]

We could discuss firearms here, and the effects they would have had on a seg. Still OT.

Well, it's not the same at all. Bows, arrows and mail were used in the Roman period, firearms weren't. The analogy and relevance holds IMHO. We're talking Roman and ancient now, so we fulfil the criteria I believe.

"La plupart s'étaient fait des tuniques de cuir ou de pièces de diverses étoffes, pour se garantir de ses traits". Diverses étoffes?!

"Various fabrics" according to Babelfish.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

possibly meaning they cobbled them together from whatever they could lay their hands on .....an arrow in the back side is good inspiration.....

[Dan Howard]

I agree with Tarby that this is relevant. Mail has essentially remained unchanged for two thousand years. The tests and experiments with mail and arrows regardless of which culture was involved can improve our understanding. Of course it is difficult to generalise sicne there is a great deal of variation in link size, riveting, metallurgical composition, etc. But that variation is just as evident in Roman mail as anywhere else.

[Dan Howard]

Metal's lighter than felt? I find that difficult to believe.

Metal armour that offers the same level of protection as felt will weigh considerably less than felt. Conversely if you have metal and felt armour that weigh the same then the metal one will provide significantly better protection.

[Tarbicus]

I so wish we had an 'Institute For Ancient Armour Reproduction Testing' somewhere.

IFAART

[D B Campbell]

"Various fabrics" according to Babelfish.

Thanks, Tarb. The point is that Caesar actually lists the various fabrics -- I've no idea why translators are reticient about listing them. :?

"omnes fere milites aut ex coactis aut ex centonibus aut ex coriis tunicas aut tegimenta fecerant"

I suppose these measures must've been effective, otherwise Caesar would've scoffed at their attempts. Any comments?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hello duncan, what do these translate as? Apart from tunicas...?

If I read this correct they took various garments, sewed the edges, and stuffed them with straw/grass?

[Tarbicus]

"omnes fere milites aut ex coactis aut ex centonibus aut ex coriis tunicas aut tegimenta fecerant"

I suppose these measures must've been effective, otherwise Caesar would've scoffed at their attempts. Any comments?

http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/showcase/wordsonline.html

coactis
coactum, coacti N N [XXXFS] veryrare
thick/fulled covering; mattress;
cogo, cogere, coegi, coactus V TRANS [XXXAO]
collect/gather, round up, restrict/confine; force/compel; convene; congeal;

centonibus
cento, centonis N M [XXXCO]
patchwork quilt, blanket or curtain made of old garments sewn together; rags;

coriis
corius, cori(i) N M [BAXDO] Early lesser
corium, cori(i) N N [XAXBO]
skin/leather/hide; peel/rind/shell/outer cover; layer/coating; thong/strap/whip

tegimenta
tegimen, tegiminis N N [XXXBO]
covering/cover/protection; clothing; body armor; skin/shell/husk (animal/fruit)
tegimentum, tegimenti N N [XXXCO]
covering/cover/protection; clothing; body armor; skin/shell/husk (animal/fruit)

My stab in the dark:
"Almost all soldiers, either from thick mattresses, or from patchwork blankets/quilts, or from leather tunics, made armoured coverings."

or,
"Almost all soldiers made them, either from thick mattresses, or from patchwork blankets/quilts, or from leather tunics, or armour."

or,
"Almost all soldiers made them, either from thick mattresses, or from patchwork blankets/quilts, or from leather tunics or shield covers."

[Matthew Amt]

Note that Caesar does NOT say anything about these troops having trouble because their ARMOR was inadequate, much less anything about arrows penetrating mail. The obvious conclusion is that at least some of his troops HAD NO ARMOR, therefore they resorted to makeshift defences against the arrows.

Valete,

Matthew

[Tarbicus]

Or they had simple pectorals.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thanks for the Link and trans, Jim!
Seems close to the on in penguin. Or oxford.. :roll: