Aachener Erklärung

[caiusbeerquitius]

Hey,' if you say so; no mullahs....but you you do seemed to be now informed about what you before described as " gross nonsense."

This all tangential. I only brought up the subject of Germany salarying it's priests and minister

As I said, the state does not pay the priests, mullahs, whatever. The state collects the tax for the churches, that´s it. They can do with the money what they want to do. No priest is a state employee. That´s quite a difference.

You point out the State chooses who can be acknowledged as a church. The State chooses who can educate. Historical re-enactment can and often does serve as a vehicle for education.

The funny thing is, that everybody is the state, everybody is a part of the state, and the majority of "everybodies" decides. Where´s the problem?


Redewald:

It is a rectangular flag suspended from a spear -- in fact, they use several different ones. It seems that other imperial Romans groups do, too.

That´s not what it is about. It is the arrangement of swasikas and triskeles ( a large one in the centre with four in each corner of the central square) on the flag, as well as the coice of colour: red, white, black.

I find it difficult to understand how you can know how many times it may have been used by people in the past. It

Just look at many findings of a certain type of object, and look how often the swastika appears on it. Make this for several items.

may have been on many clothes.

Yes, it MAY have been. But since we don´t know exactly, it might be better to not use it that mauch, as the symbol has quite a large rucksack on it´s back.

By the way, within Ulfhednar, most members do not use it on their clothes.

Maybe, but if you look on the pics on the U. homepage you will see that it is hard to find a pic without at least one of them somewhere on it.

[Redwald]

Hello Christian,

That´s not what it is about. It is the arrangement of swasikas and triskeles ( a large one in the centre with four in each corner of the central square) on the flag, as well as the coice of colour: red, white, black.

Really? And the ss used triskelles? Surely the form of the swastika is very different? Perhaps you can show us an ss flag that looks similar?

By the way, within Ulfhednar, most members do not use it on their clothes.

Maybe, but if you look on the pics on the U. homepage you will see that it is hard to find a pic without at least one of them somewhere on it.

Not so, I have just checked this by looking at the 34 four members on the website -- only two have anything vaguely like a swastika, one of the Polish members has a yellow sun wheel on his red shield and an English member has a continuous swastika type pattern on his tunic edging. This is of the type often seen on Greek friezes.
In other pictures on the site - Arian does have a frieze on his horse blanket and there are one or two swastika type designs on shields -- none of these are of the type used by the nazis.
As for the frequency of the appearance of the symbol in ancient times -- well you are entitled to your opinion, however, you must accept that others may have different ideas to you.
I am not sure why you seem to be going out of your way to try and build a case against Ulfhednar, however, that, too is your privilege. However the members of Ulfhednar are my friends and the implications that you seem to be making sadden me.

Paul

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

There are actually 4 swastika type emblems on the Dura Europa cylindrical scutum........

[Tjordulf]

Yes maybe Ulfhednars flag does resemble an SS one, but isn't it equally logical that this works the other way round also, that the SS flag is meant to echo an earlier Germanic sense of warrior ethic, albiet a misguided one.
By trying to eradicate all uses of any historical symbols that have been " stolen" by extremists, that only serves to highlight its power in its later perverted form. The Swastika, as most of you should know has been used by just about every major ancient civilisation throughout history, ie Roman, Egyptian, Hindu, North American indian and in the context of this thread Northern European Germanic tribes. So, by using it in its original and authentic context, it serves to (re) educate people of the meaning of this symbol and takes away the power from those that would continue to misuse it. Putting ones head under the pillow doesn't make the monster go away! Sometimes we have to face up to fear and hate, but denial and silencing is not the way to do it.
Also why is Paganism an issue? I myself am not a Pagan, but I respect re-enactment friends and colleagues that are. I also wear the symbols of my re-enactment "characters" faith, ie, a Thors hammer, but I do not preach any religion to members of the public. In the same way that I talk about the brutality and weapons used in my chosen period, but do not go around blood eagling people or condoning hooliganism or any sort of violence.
I feel people seem to be missing the fundamental point, which is; Context.
A swastika worn on a migration period brooch whilst at a re-enactment of the migration period, is So not the same thing as wearing a swastika on a red armband at a holocaust memorial service. Obviously the key thing here is intent, and whilst Ulfhednar are in effect being accused of being neo nazi's, albeit covertly, I feel this is wholly unjust and inaccurate. The real danger here is from the ones who don't hide their extreme beliefs, or dress it up in re-enactment, if one has a message, why make it ambiguous. The Overt neo nazi's are the ones who should be targeted for their use of the swastika, because of the hatred that is implicit with the context of their use of it. Teach history, enjoy learning history, but leave modern Politics and Religion out of it.

"Truth is my sword, Wisdom is my shield
and ignorance is the foe to which I shall not yield."

[Tjordulf]

"The real danger here is from the ones who don't hide their extreme beliefs, or dress it up in re-enactment."


Just to clarify, this, I firmly believe is not the case with Ulfhednar.
[/quote]

[Ceawlin]

Hello all, first post here on RAT,which may take the form of a monologue. I have come across several innacuracies in the previous discussion which I am anxious to correct.

I first came in contact with Ulfhednar 3-4 years ago after a discussion with Robert of Fectio about a source of good Spangenhelms. He suggested I look at their website and check out the helmets on display. I then contacted Arian Ziliox who supplied me with a superb helmet. Like Redwald I am proud to call Herr Ziliox a friend and consider him a man of the highest integrity. He has laboured tirelessly to bring a greater understanding of Germanics of the Early Medieval period to the public and has made Ulfhednar a high profile group reknowned for the excellence of it's kit. Unfortunately this high profile makes it a prime target for abuse from (in my view) seemingly jealous individuals.

I have attended several Ulfhednar events, and not once have I seen or heard the slightest trace of neo-nazism. Members include Germans, Poles, French, and English, both Pagan and Christian and at all events a good time is had by all.

Several points hitherto mentioned I would like to discuss

Caiustarquitius writes

the Ulfhednar are not hobbyists, they live from re-enactment

Christian, I was interested to find out you know my employment status. Sadly this is not the case and I have to work damn hard (as a gardener if you are interested) to support my family and my hobby.

Valerius writes

...neo-pagans surely, relishing to recreate a doubtful part of XXc history

Robert, I respect your integrity as a fellow Wansdyke enthusiast, but I object to being labelled incorrectly. I am an agnostic with no interest in the third reich except when it inteferes with my hobby and upsets my friends.

Caiustarquitius writes

in a scene made up of mainly freaks

Do you mean all re-enactors Christian? If so I agree, let's have a laugh at ourselves. If only early medieaval re-enactors do we really have to put up with more mud slinging? Personally I find Gladiatorial re-enactment sickening (strangely I confess I don't know why), but I am quite capable of walking away until it's finished and I can then have a chat/beer with the re-enactors themselves.

Caiustarquitius writes

the German part of the group is quite silent about this

Well Christian, as yet we have not had any feedback on RAT from Polish French or German members, sinister to you no doubt, but as I have actually gone out and met many of these people, I can tell you that not many of them can speak English. Those that can are infinetely better in my native tongue than I am in theirs, but still, their spoken and written English is not as polished as yours, and thus not up to debating in a mainly English forum. There is also the possibility that many feel they have better things to do.

Reference the display of swastikas, Redwald and Tjordulf seem to have covered this well, but I will have my say. As Roman re-enactors many of you will know the rather old book by Peteson "The Roman Legions in Colour Photographs". I'm not sure how well this has aged but on page 36 a member of Milites Litoris Saxoni sports a tunic based on the Piazza Armerina mosaic, minus the swastika to "...avoid wearisome arguement with ill informed members of the public." This always struck me as rather a shame, and when it boils down to it it is the distortion of history to suit current idealogy. (Hmmm, what next? Book burning?)

Clearly and understandably the swastika can upset people, but I would like to think most of them are intelligent enough to distinguish between a swastika on say, an Anglo-Saxon spearhead (Dover Buckland Grave 93) and a nazi swastika. Unfortunately it is the " ill-informed" (or rather well informed but bloody minded) individuals that deliberatley draw no difference between the two.

My own tunic (mentioned by Redwald) has a continuous design of swastikas embroidered on the hem and cuffs based on a design from a funerary earn from Spong Hill, Norfolk, England, and the sword from a grave I hope to re-construct (Finglesham 204) has another on the pommel in niello. The whole of early Germanic culture is awash with the things, so to pretend they didn't exist would to be to deny historical evidence. By wearing them and explaining them to members of the public is the only way to dispel the sinister mystique that is being engendered about them.

So to sum up it would be nice if many of the accusers of Ulfhednar would actually come and meet us and share a glass, before making statements publicly. It appears to me that because a high percentage (not all) of Ulfhednar members are long haired and bearded individuals, who like loud music and leather jackets (myself included) as well as superb re-enactment kit, it makes them an easy target for repectfully dressed establishment witch hunters and inquisitors.

Right I'm off to bed

Mike

[Praefectusclassis]

Guys, get back on topic of this thread, the declaration of Aachen. If you must discuss what happened with Ulfhednar, do it in another thread and we've done the 'Swastika or no swastika' elsewhere on RAT. A search may be illuminating.

[Tjordulf]

Jasper, my humble apologies for my part in straying off topic, in my defence I was merely responding to comments made way earlier in the thread, I indeed Joined RAT as did Ceawlin to initially respond to this thread, so I for my part was unaware of previous discussions on this topic. Again, my bad!!

Cheers

Bruce

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Hm ... the declaration of Aachen could have been a really good thing, if it wasn't inextricably intertwined with the Ulfhednar "witchhunt" and in my opinion hijacked by people with a personal agenda from the first minute.
I can only hope that this isn't going to poison the community anymore and people next time think twice and check the facts before they make unsubstantiated charges or infamous intimations based on mere heresay against whose, they should work together with.
As to the declaration of Aachen itself: What means actual state of science? Who can really claim to decide that? A "bipartisan" comitee of historians, state officials, Re-enactors etc.? Fine in theory, but (almost) every research is debatable and interpretation, as we see. What role will political correctness play then? A biiigg one, I figure ... :roll:
sorry to say, but this declaration doesn't solve any problems.

[Ulfwin]

Well,
I am doing late roman / early medieval reenactment. I do know the initiators of the "Aachener Erklärung" personally and I like them. I have been suspicious towards the Ulfhednars for other reasons, so I took a chance last year and watched their work at an event, in order to make my own, independent, judgment, but that doesn't belong to this topic. I know many neopagans, I know christians, I know my own attitude. So I understand, that there are many points where someone can find trouble. If he looks for it.

I do probably stand in line with the criteria described in the "Declaration of Aachen", but I do not subscribe. Nor will I subscribe other declarations or become a member of any unions trying to give an official touch to my hobby. I see this as a very German trait, making rules and regulating everything, forming unions not out of solidarity among (opressed :wink: ) equals, but with the inevitable aim of becoming a part of bureaucracy.

I do not say, that this is the intention of the initiators of that declaration, for them it is an act of taking up responsibility, but when such an union is established it gets its own dynamic and the member of the second generation do give away their own responsibility by accepting the established rules.
So I have a political problem not with the content of the declaration nor the intention of initiators, but with the chosen tool, which will result in some label given to the "member groups", marking them as the good and trustworthy, while all others are the wild and maybe bad ones, if it ever had any results at all. The quality of my gear is not dependent on that label, and for me it is a great hobby, but still a hobby. I do not need selfmade bureaucracy nor an explication how to behave politically correct. I have to deal with enough bureaucracy, running my own business, and how to behave properly I was told by my parents.
I understand, that the situation is more difficult for those who do living history as a profession, but these would better make a trade union and talk about financial conditions according to their needs, minimum wages etc. and how to close their market towards cheep hobby groups. There is absolutely no shame in that. Quality and ethics may be subjects of such a LivingHistoricsUnion, too, but it would fit better inside of it than outside.

Me, outside, wants to behave ethically and scientifically correct, wants to display a very fine living historix hobby, wants to play at events and musea, wants to keep the brain in move, but I do not want an organisation that tells me how. I do gladly accept critics from archeologists and organizers, I always want to improve my wear and gear, but I need no label for that. I do it for myself.

Cheers,

Stefan

[Ceawlin]

Well said both the above, and Jasper, I apologise for straying from the thread. I hope it was acceptable to defend against accusations made previously in the discussion, before we get more barbarian bashing.

After all I am not in a group with interests in earlier peoples who had raised arm salutes, a plethora of eagles, serried ranks of parading infantry and an interest in world domination. Hey hang on a minute :wink:

very best regards
Mike

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[caiusbeerquitius]

Ulfhednar:
link from old RAT
Swastikas:
link from old RAT

[Caballo]

"before we get more barbarian bashing. "


Hey- thats our job!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

How many times have I said Caballo, stop bashing yourself......
it's not your fault you were born a Batavian......... :twisted: