"National Roman Legion"

[Matthew Amt]

From the National Legion Website:

"We ask: "Do these groups truly honor the late, great, Roman Army?" Not really, because most of these groups are smaller (usually three to ten men in each) and each of these groups strives for a unique look."

If you belong to an independent group that identifies itself with the name and number of a historical legion, you do not truly honor the Roman Army. That's what it says. If you just FEEL like making some cool stuff to be able to show the public a centurion or a signifer as well as a legionary, you are apparently some kind of problem, a twit or egomaniac.

Well, I could go on, but it gives me a stomach ache. The whole first page of the site is riddled with misinformation and dubious insinuations. Most of us love the idea of bigger events and bigger units, and I have yet to meet anyone who wouldn't love to chuck the role of commander for a weekend and go back to playing grunt while someone else is in charge.

This is NOT about "egos"--every reenactment group in the world is run by an ego, or it wouldn't exist. This is not about people not playing nicely together, because we DO, on a regular basis, and our massed events look great regardless of tunic colors or shield emblems. We all agree that Peterson has been a huge inspiration to Roman reenacting, and that he's a nice guy in person. He has visited my home, and we had an excellent visit.

But for some reason he became a monster online. His abusive behavior could easily have gotten him--and RAT--sued, and he alienated any number of people WHO WANTED THE SAME THING HE CLAIMS TO WANT.

Well, it's pointless going on about this, but as one of the main targets of his slanders, I couldn't let everyone go on missing the point. It's not the concept of a National Legion, it's not everyone else's ego. It's Peterson's continued refusal to write in a decent and civilized manner.

Valete,

Matthew

[jkaler48]

I would point out that several units use the same shield pattern:
the XXth's pattern and that IF national events are ever possible and YOU
are able to afford a SECOND scutum that would be a logical choice rather
than a pattern that almost no one uses.

[Magnus]

True John, but the XX's emblem isn't used out of any sense of "unity". Usually it's conveniance since Matt Amt has graciously provided the patterns already. Some people don't have the desire (for whatever reason) to create their own. Scuta emblems for many groups are a way to show the differences in roman legions, as well as reenactor groups.

I'm also firmly against the idea of acquiring more gear just to be able to participate at an event. It's expensive enough acquiring one full complete impression! This is one of the main reasons I personally won't be going to Lafe next year, unfortunately (AD 9 is waaay too early for a Dacian era legionary).

[Caius Fabius]

Actually I am not sure why this thread was started again, since it was covered very well previously. If you don't like what it says on someone else's web page, don't go there. If you have suggestions on how to make someones web page better, send it in a private email to the webmaster of that site. If you just don't like someone, leave it off the RAT forum.

Dan is an Army vet, a historian and a promoter of the hobby. I respect all of these and the idea that he is still able to get out and lead the troops.

Rusty is very right in that statement, whoever is holding/running an event should not try to be the troop leader on the ground. Command and Staff issues are always calling you to do something, taking you away from pushing troops. Lafe worked so well this year because the people running the event 24/7 could rely on the on-the-ground running staff, who I won't name but who ALL deserve kudos for stepping in, taking up the group banner and leading by example, in crappy weather and interesting / challenging scenarios.

The fact is that the National Legion could be a great idea, when people get together for a big event, having a second shield is cheaper than driving from California to Arkansas, or from Arkansas to South Carolina, and if you go to an event where the host unit provides loaner shields in their motif, you should always be willing to carry their shield for their event.

When people who live within 25-50 miles of each other can't work together to promote the hobby because they can't compromise and everyone has to be the centurion, it makes you wonder if we need to worry about a National Legion. (Several areas suffer from this, if the shoe fits, don't whine on the list, send me a PM).

Show off the pretty banners and standards that each unit has researched and spent so much to own, but when you go to an event, fall in under the host unit and only wear that transverse crest for your photo op, or even leave it at home! Your group knows who you are, and hopefully honors you, but having a 'formation' of 'Legions' the size of modern tank crews and mech infantry squads has always struck me as a bit silly. :lol:

[jkaler48]

The national Legion website cites "40" sets of equipment on hand that are an important reason to organize on the 14th. Isn't this older Deepeeka gear that is no longer used if possible by most reenactors?
Also I think the whole Uniformity vs Diversity discussion applies here as
the website seems to advocate hard to the uniformity side. Link to the
discussion:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=22821

[Magnus]

Well said Caius. That's also why I liked Lafe, in that each group that came had their own tent area, with their colours flying. But when marching out to battle, then we went under one or no vexillum. If people are worried about such things, they have problems. When it comes down to it, it's just a flag to go into fake battle with anyway.

Lafe worked well...what else is there to say?

John, if you go to enough events you'll see TONS of gear that isn't perfect. You'll see older versions, you'll see some civil war era stuff in use because people haven't been able to spend the $ on roman camp stuff...the list really goes on. Each person and on top of that, each group has their own idiosyncracies.

There's nothing wrong with that...in fact, it's nice seeing that no-one is perfect. Makes you fit in better with your own non-perfect gear.

[Robert Vermaat]

Actually I am not sure why this thread was started again, since it was covered very well previously.

It was because there is a new website that advocates this project. I see no problem with reacting to that, surely?

Dan is an Army vet, a historian and a promoter of the hobby. I respect all of these and the idea that he is still able to get out and lead the troops.

Absolutely.

Rusty is very right in that statement, whoever is holding/running an event should not try to be the troop leader on the ground. Command and Staff issues are always calling you to do something, taking you away from pushing troops.

Ain't that the truth. I hope to have two commanders who can do that for me at Archeon in two weeks. :wink:

The fact is that the National Legion could be a great idea, when people get together for a big event, having a second shield is cheaper than driving from California to Arkansas, or from Arkansas to South Carolina, and if you go to an event where the host unit provides loaner shields in their motif, you should always be willing to carry their shield for their event.

Sure! The 'National legion' is not a bad idea in itself.

Show off the pretty banners and standards that each unit has researched and spent so much to own, but when you go to an event, fall in under the host unit and only wear that transverse crest for your photo op, or even leave it at home! Your group knows who you are, and hopefully honors you, but having a 'formation' of 'Legions' the size of modern tank crews and mech infantry squads has always struck me as a bit silly. :lol:

Well, that's the rub, isn't it? What unit IS 'the host unit'? The unit that organises the event? In that case, one would need more than one shield, because events can be hosted by more than one unit.
Or is there to be just one event in which the 'National Legion' is the host?

Anyway, if you are worried about units the sizes of tank crews, what would be more natural to start off with the largest group around, instead of asking all the groups, including the ones that are not the sizes of a tank crew, to leave their well-researched stuff at home and join a much smaller group? :wink:

[richsc]

Show off the pretty banners and standards that each unit has researched and spent so much to own

Certainly that is the surface appearance, but really, since no one has a lock on accuracy, why not honor all the diverse impressions? Better to let each group, who have spent a lot of time and money and not just on the standard, take turns leading and presenting their conclusions and research.

Why not push for a group that can represent everyone for funding purposes? Like a 501C3 organization?

[caiusbeerquitius]

We ask: "Do these groups truly honor the late, great, Roman Army?" Not really, because most of these groups are smaller (usually three to ten men in each) and each of these groups strives for a unique look. Alas, when the groups do gather and try to work together (as they occasionally do), they appear more like a hodge-podge than a real, disciplined army. An unfortunate fact is that standard bearers and officers often outnumber the rank and file legionaries.

This is one of the most strange arguments I ever read. :lol:

1st: Why should one "honour" the Roman army?
Isn´t it enough to display its soldiers and educate people about the Roman army?
Is it even worth "honouring" it?
What actually means "honouring" the Roman army? Creating a church for it?

Since the Roman Army was a very diverse institution with many different units: Isn´t it the best way to "honour" the Roman army by HAVING many units, displaying thus the diversity and local differences of the Roman army within the Roman Empire throughout different centuries?
Wouldn´t one just "dishonour" the Roman army by closing all the little groups and having a display-monopoly on one certain Roman unit?

Maybe each group should think about why they do this hobby, and what they want to get out of it? The argument above invokes that everybody except of the writers of it is too stupid to take care of themselves and their interests, their spare time and their historical knowledge. It thus seems to me to be quite arrogant.

As it is, I very much like the situation in Europe, where many groups display different time-settings and different regional characteristica of the Roman Army. I don´t see the worth of reducing all these into one group, unless one wants to impress and not to educate, to march and not to explain, to command and not to teach.
That then would be ars gratia artis.

[jkaler48]

Show off the pretty banners and standards that each unit has researched and spent so much to own

Certainly that is the surface appearance, but really, since no one has a lock on accuracy, why not honor all the diverse impressions? Better to let each group, who have spent a lot of time and money and not just on the standard, take turns leading and presenting their conclusions and research.

Why not push for a group that can represent everyone for funding purposes? Like a 501C3 organization?

A national group for funding and national events requires the time and efforts of a dedicated group of qualified individuals. Qualifications should include:

1. A lot of time
2. Excellent diplomatic skills
3. An interest in Reenacting
4. Computer skills
5. Good relations with most current active group leaderships
6. Willingness to be tolerant and inclusive and make reasonable compromises.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

While I agree with the argument of the different groups retaining their identity, it seems a wothwhile goal to be able to present a group as a certain legion...why must it be retricted to one legion though?
Certainly there is room to present to the public a mass of troops from different eras?

Yes it would be a spectacle, but that is also what educates people. Things that grab the imagination...... ?

[Tarbicus]

Given the subject and how these particular discussions can become rather (shall we say) "heated", I'm just reminding everyone that a keyword in the rules is 'respect'. That goes for individuals and groups, regardless of what they wear and believe.

Please avoid making the thread hard work for the mods, lest the mods feel a need to make it less work for them :wink: If you need to make a comment on others or their groups think hard about what you're typing, and consider if you'd want someone else typing it about you.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Cool as Ice here Mon...... 8)

[rusty myers]

When we do events we always ask folks to bring their standards, if nothing else they can use it in front of a group photo or two, and we can set them all together as a proper "Standards Shrine" in the Principia... or we can use them in the background as decor. I hate to see soemone's work go to waste.

Most of the US units use red base color shields too, so even different designs fade out at a distance and we look uniform anyway, so while we have a preferred design, it is never set in stone. Use your scuta!!

I guess the lead group is usually who we fall under, and if they planned it, we "work" under their vex, never had that argument at an event...

This is for fun. If you start waking up at night worrying... It is no longer a hobby.

[Hibernicus]

We are not a national legion per se but we recruit across the USA and have done so for most of our 15 year existence. Our "contubernium" chapters across the USA are small. Some have come and some have gone. Their size and activities are very dependent upon the local leadership, their enthusiasm for Roman reenacting and their abilities to recruit locally.

One of the first things I do is encourage a prospective new member outside the Centuria representing California, Arizona and Nevada to explore the possibilities of joining a closer group if a Contubernium of Legio IX is more than a few hours away.. This is an important part of finding out if the prospect truly wants to join us and do Roman reenacting our way. Often times a prospect has differing ideas about what it's like to be a Roman soldier, or wants to do an era that's not part of our scope, or wants to portray a persona outside our stated goal. Why should he join us if we don't do what he is looking for?

We have about 50 soldiers across the USA, 27 in Southern California (not counting new recruits.... about 15 in the last month). We all do the same interpretation. I, for one, am glad that folk new to Roman reenacting have many choices, many clubs to choose from, and a diverse range of clubs at that!

I too am very grateful for the work Dan Peterson has done to promote Roman reenacting. His Roman Legions Recreated in Colour Photographs was my inspiration. His work with Deepeeka to produce line of products earned him a place of honor.

To clarify, I don't want Legio IX Hispana to be a National Legion, no ambition for that at all, but I do want us to be a large legion club. We have yet to have a national gathering and are considering an event in February 2009 to be our first. We are looking at the real possibily of 35-40 of us gathering in one place... and we are working very hard to attain our ultimate goal by July of 2009.

I sincerely wish Dan the very very best in his attempt to reform his version of Legio XIIII!