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Starting an auxillia unit.
#1
I was just wondering a few things.
I and one (maybe two) others are finally getting our act together and starting a small (hopefully growing) auxillia unit.
As the one who got this thing started (read; the guy who get's the blame) It falls upon me to be the Optio of the unit.
I was wondering if it would be acceptable for me to wear the Italic "C" helmet instead of one of the Auxillia helms or the Coolus helms?
I was hoping to stand out a bit more than the 'Hastile"(sp) would allow.
Comments? Suggestions?
Titus Petronicus Graccus
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Pedro Bedard
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#2
Why stick with the usual "brass" helmets that are more commonly associated with Auxilia (mistakenly?). All depends on the time period you wish to depict but I use an Italic B and others in my group use the Gallic A, and there is always the Gallic I (Carnuntum) that combines "brass" bowl and "steel" cheek pieces for a real standout look.
Sulla Felix

AKA Barry Coomber
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#3
Hey Pedro, I just replied to your email, sorry for the delay. Coolus helms will be too early for us...stick with the italic and gallic types. I'd say most mid 1st century helms are ok...avoid the Niedermormter and Itallic G (too late).
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Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

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#4
Quote:Coolus helms will be too early for us...

Hmmm... Look at this.. from Trajan's Column..
[Image: TCcoolus.jpg]

Quote:and Itallic G (too late).

This is also from the Column... Very similarly decorated helmets to the
I-I-G (Hebron helmet) Although dated to a Hadrianic context it could easily be an older helmet.
[Image: helm010.jpg]


My full article can be seen here.... http://www.romanarmy.net/trajhelmets.htm

Iron helmets of the Imperial Gallic type have been found in soldier's graves such as the Gallic A from Nijmegen (found with a round iron shield boss) The Gallic E from Idria pri Baci and the Gallic D Verdun.

All found with bent swords and round bosses (typically interments and bent swords are a non-Roman practice)
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#5
Do people really say that those helmets on Trajan's column are Coolus C helms? Or do we just happen to have a helmet which resembles what the artists have sculpted?

I read your article Ade, and I think your linking the coolus helmet with those two rather vague examples on the column is a bit of a stretch...not impossible, but stretching it. Have any Coolus helmets been found in an early 2nd century context? That would reinforce your theory quite well.

Pedro, I'd look more closely at Adamklissi for auxilliary gear (if there is any) before I'd use Trajan's Column. Though after having read Ade's article it seems there isn't any beyond archer gear.

The Itallic G is dated to about 140 AD or so. About 35 years too late for us. The crossbracing is far too smooth and refined as opposed to the rough type found on Dacian era Gallic helms. Oh, and in my opinion, the Itallic D is also too late. Stylistically it's closer to the Niedermormter's of the 3rd century than anything 1st century.
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Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#6
Actually I was under the impression the neidermormter was late second century....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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#7
I would say that the Imperial Italic 'D' from Mainz is spot on for a mid first century AD helmet. In form (leaving aside the decoration) it can really be nothing else. The find of the Imerial Italic 'E' at Hoffheim dating to the early second century and clearly old when discarded, which is in most respects the same as the 'D' aside from the angle of the neck guard (and we now know that the angle of the neck guard on its own is not reliable as a dating method) broadly confirms the dating of the 'D'. It is possible (and Robinson allowed for this possibility) that the 'D' might have been 'redecorated' at a later date but as the brasswork had been stripped from the Hoffheim helmet before deposition we cannot rely on that hypothesis. Junklemann's theory that the Mainz 'D' is a third century helmet is based on the decoration alone and does not take account of the form of the helmet itself. As I have pointed out elsewhere on RAT in the past, there may be other reasons why the decoration may be similar which are harder for us to identify. One possibility is that helmets made in a particular place may have been decorated in a way which was traditional for that place for a very long time, allowing for a 150 year separation but sharing a similar (not the same) style of decoration.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

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#8
I have made the Italic D helmet four times and would consider that it is the only one that may be considered a Centurians helmet, looking at how the crest holder functions and of course how the peek is held on. The crest goes in and slides only forward no twisting, then the two spigots that hold the peek take two leather thongs at the sides of the crest.
Brian Stobbs
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#9
One of the helmets from Sizak was definitely a centurio's helmet. It retains what is left of a decorated silver sheathing and has rings at the sides to attach a transverse crest to.

Sorry for pulling this thread ever further off topic.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

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#10
Quote:Sorry for pulling this thread ever further off topic.

Crispvs

Nothing to apologize for. Every post is educational.
Nothing wrong with that!
Titus Petronicus Graccus
Cohors I Vindelicorvm

Pedro Bedard
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#11
Brian,

We cannot categorically say that the Italic D is a centurions helmet.

I can say the same for the Gallic D. It has a twin slotted crest holder that supports the idea of stability (having two prongs instead of one).

Secondly the Gallic D does not have front nor back hoops suggesting that the crest would be transverse.

The Italic D pear shaped studs that hold the peak can also be for decorative purposes not only for fastening the crest.

Besides, the transverse crests that are depicted on centurion tombstones are sittting directly over the top of the helmet, not suspended in mid air.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#12
The Italic D like the Gallic H (Augsburg) could well have undergone many changes in its life. The 'H' it has recently been posted here on RAT by Caius Tarquitius that it too had a decorative brass sheet cross banding like the italic D later in its life.

Certainly its bowl shaping does of the Mainz IID suggest ,as Crispvs points out, mid first century.

The 'centurion's' Gallic F from Sisak also underwent at least for changes of appearence during its life.

Quote:linking the coolus helmet with those two rather vague examples on the column is a bit of a stretch...not impossible, but stretching it.

Maybe, but we know that helmets saw a great deal of service, for example the Montefortino type dated to the 70's AD, and the cross-braced Theilenhofen helmet dated to the 180's which was found at an auxiliary fort, so no, not impossible.

There ARE auxiliary soldiers depicted on the Tropeum Traiani, but they show no distinction between helmets worn by the legionary soldiers (which is what I would expect). Too many auxiliary soldier impressions rely on Robinson's out-dated helmet classifications.
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#13
Quote:I would say that...

Crispvs

So Paul you're saying that one possibility is that the base of the Itallic D is mid first century, but the decoration is later. Why would they do this?

You also said that the Hoffheim helmet which was found plain but had decoration on it is the same type as the Itallic D which places it at the first century. I tried to find the Itallic E in the RAT imagebase to no avail...how was the "E" determined to be old at the time of it being discarded? How do you know the decoration that was stripped from it mirrors that of the "D"?

Shape-wise the D does resemble the 1st century gallic series, that is undeniable. Decoration wise it resembles a transition piece preceding the Itallic H. Which would place it beyond mid 1st century, closer to the mid - late 2nd. So if that's the case, it may have originated a lot earlier, but it's current usage would be that of the mid-late 2nd century. Too late for the Dacian era.

If, on the other hand it's been made specifically for an officer rank, or made in a particular era, that also could rule out it's use in the Dacian wars. Unless under a specific set of circumstances right?
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Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#14
Quote:Maybe, but we know that helmets saw a great deal of service, for example the Montefortino type dated to the 70's AD, and the cross-braced Theilenhofen helmet dated to the 180's which was found at an auxiliary fort, so no, not impossible.

There ARE auxiliary soldiers depicted on the Tropeum Traiani, but they show no distinction between helmets worn by the legionary soldiers (which is what I would expect). Too many auxiliary soldier impressions rely on Robinson's out-dated helmet classifications.

Yeah, I can't disagree with any of those points! Anything is possible! Guess it all depends on what you form as your own opinion.
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Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#15
The brasswork had been stripped off the Hoffheim helmet prior to deposition so it is impossible to know exactly what it originally looked like. The idea that it was probably old when deposited is not proveable but seems a strong possibility. Its similarity to the Imperial Italic 'D' was pointed out by Robinson, who felt that apart from the angle of the neck guard, they could almost have been the same helmet. I am not sure of the present whereabouts of the Imperial Italic 'E' from Hoffheim but there are pictures of it in Robinson.

"So Paul you're saying that one possibility is that the base of the Itallic D is mid first century, but the decoration is later. Why would they do this? "

This was a possibility Robinson alludes to, when he remarks that the decorative style seems to have a resemblance to that found on some later cavalry helmets.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

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