Lorica hamata / segmentata

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

And, as was pointed out earlier, it takes a smithy to repair plate, where any monkey with pliers can replace missing links in mail.

I would argue that it is not that difficult to repair plate. Even I can hammer dents out of plate........so obviously a monkey can do that too.
For a field repair, that is about all that would be required. that and the ability to rivet it back to a leather strap, or refasten a buckle. I doubt field repairs would need to be pretty...expedience would rule on a combat campaign...and there would be smiths available....

[Peroni]

Thanks for the info, Matt. Do you happen to know of a contemporary reproduction of a segmentata plate using the method you described? I would be interested to learn about such an experiment.

Yes, as pointed out earlier, the best read is 'Iron for the Eagles' by David Sim. Tempus Publishing

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Thanks for the info, Matt. Do you happen to know of a contemporary reproduction of a segmentata plate using the method you described? I would be interested to learn about such an experiment.

Yes, as pointed out earlier, the best read is 'Iron for the Eagles' by David Sim. Tempus Publishing

Although quite informative, the book does not discuss a contemporary experiment on the actual production of a segmented plate. It does, however, have some info on the subject under the "MANUFACTURE OF THE SHIELD BOSS" section (pp. 95-96), which further adds to the point that production of a segmentata plate apparently was a more complex enterprise than some might have thought:

The shield boss was made from sheet metal. The production of this material is the subject of current research: some of the Roman sheet iron examined by the first author shows a uniformity of thickness that suggests the use of sophisticated forms of production, such as rollers. A system of rolling used in the production of olive oil was well known in antiquity, and it is therefore possible that a similar system may have been used to make sheet iron. However, it has to be noted that at present there is no specific evidence to support the use of rollers by the Romans. There is a further complication in the production and working of sheet iron, which is that the metal is very prone to cracking as it gets below four millimeters thick because of the slag inclusions. Examination of a piece of lorica segmentata and a strip of sheet metal of secure Roman date (both from Vindolanda) has shown the practice of welding two pieces of ferrous metal, one of soft, ductile wrought iron and the other of high carbon steel, was used in Roman times. In the case of the lorica segmentata the steel was on the outside, that is the side which would be facing the enemy. Such a composite material would combine the very desirable properties of strength and ductility for the production of sheet metal from which to form deep drawings such as shield bosses and helmets. The technique of joining a hard, stronger steel to a tougher iron body is often found in Roman tools such as knives and axes. Research is currently underway which it is hoped will reveal the extent of the use of the thin sheet kind of laminated metal structure described here.

[Servio Caro (Javier Sánc]

There have been found segmentata plates from the third century in Leon, They were made by the own craftsman in the castra. it looks like the segmentata was still in use at least by soldiers in Hispania, more than in other places at this time

[Wander]

the practice of welding two pieces of ferrous metal, one of soft, ductile wrought iron and the other of high carbon steel, was used in Roman times. In the case of the lorica segmentata the steel was on the outside, that is the side which would be facing the enemy.

That's news to me, and it's fascinating. My earlier comments on metalworking were based on several years of hobby blacksmithing experience, but I've never hammer-welded sheets of dissimilar metals together. That's far more sophisticated than I thought.

To repair plate -- yes, you could simply hammer a dent out of it, and it would look better, but the metal would be fatigued and much weaker than before. To restore it to its previous strength -- in the case of simple (unwelded, single layer) plate, you'd want to work it hot, then repeat the hardening process when it's done.

For laminated plate armor, I'll leave that to the experts, as I'm not qualified to comment.

Do we have any indications whether this laminated lorica segmentata was typical?

[Titus Petronicus Graccus]

What I don't understand is why Segmentata completely disappeared in the middle ages.
Wouldn't a quick-to-make cheap armor be very useful to arm the militia and levies?

I did a study of this in University. Seems (at least to me) that the development of Armor had much more to do with fashion, rather than it's ability to deflect weaponry aimed against it.
Not a truism of course, just an educated guess.

[arklore70]

Lets not forget that a possible contributing reason for the disappearance of segmentata armor might also have been due to a change in fighting tactics.

v/r
Mike

[Wander]

Titus:

Seems (at least to me) that the development of Armor had much more to do with fashion, rather than it's ability to deflect weaponry aimed against it.
Not a truism of course, just an educated guess.

Titus: I'd be curious how you got to those conclusions. My first reaction is to say, I'd want the armor that keeps the other guy's sword out of my guts, but I can also see how someone can believe this armor or that armor is better for what we're doing. Like Arklore/Mike said, changes in fighting tactics can change armor needs, too.

What led to the conclusion that it was fashion? I'm dying to see your study.

[Robert Vermaat]

We must consider also that during 3rd century the most presence in army was ''barbarian'', with his ''habits''.

Huh? hock: Says who?

We musn't forget that mail was a Celt ''invention''.

Was it? The Romans probably adopted it from the Celtic peoples that they encountered, but I'm not sure that it was a Celtic invention?

I can't imagine a German using segmentata... like the tunic...

Huh? hock: Like the tunic? Please be more specific?

[Q. Vipsanivs Praetextatvs]

We must consider also that during 3rd century the most presence in army was ''barbarian'', with his ''habits''.

Huh? hock: Says who?

We musn't forget that mail was a Celt ''invention''.

Was it? The Romans probably adopted it from the Celtic peoples that they encountered, but I'm not sure that it was a Celtic invention?

I can't imagine a German using segmentata... like the tunic...

Huh? hock: Like the tunic? Please be more specific?

1st.- Caracalla's edict (A.D 212 ). There wasn't distinction amongst legionary and auxilia.
I consider barbarian all citizens that aren't ''italian''.

2nd.- I think that it's clear.

The knowledge on the manufacturing of mail may have come from the Celts, though the first documented contact occurred during the invasion of Spain. There were several versions of this type of armour, specialized for different military duties such as skirmishers, cavalry and spearmen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorica_hamata

All my books on this issue are in Spanish, sorry for using wikipedia.

3rd.- Have you seen any auxiliary wearing segmentata?

[Q. Vipsanivs Praetextatvs]

Sorry, I have forgotten to clarify that probably lorica hamata is a Celt invention and responsible of his develop in Europe.

Varro says that origin of lorica hamata comes from Gaul, I will search the quote.

[Q. Vipsanivs Praetextatvs]

VARRO. De lingua latina, 6, 23, 9

[Marcus Mummius]

As you can read in Bishop, M. and Coulston, J. (2006) Roman Military Equipment: From the Punic Wars to the Fall of Rome, segmentata parts were already found in auxiliary forts. It isn't known for sure if the parts belonged to armour worn by the auxiliary soldiers, but chances are considerable that they were.

Vale,

[jvrjenivs]

There wera also found a lot segmentata parts in rural settlements in the Rhine delta, which also points to segmentata use in auxilia.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

But could this not also possibly be from veterans settled after retirement, and being allotted land near the Rhine?