Lorica hamata / segmentata

[Tarbicus]

Well, they appear to be on the same level as the horsemen, compared to the enemy in front of them, or the infantry behind them...but then again it looks like you are right, ......... :?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... oTrian.jpg

The claimed cavalryman to the right; you can see his left leg which is most definitely not on a horse, but on the ground. Infantry. No proof of cavalry wearing seg.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, they appear to be on the same level as the horsemen, compared to the enemy in front of them, or the infantry behind them...but then again it looks like you are right, ......... :?

As are the men in the fuller pic first posted at the far left, or are they helmet-less cavalry in close formation? :wink:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... oTrian.jpg

The claimed cavalryman to the right; you can see his left leg which is most definitely not on a horse, but on the ground.

Infantry. No proof of cavalry wearing seg.

Thats what I just said........

[Tarbicus]

You're right, sorry. Worked 'til 3 this norning - brain was still a bit fuzzy.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

No probs..I hope it was on something worth while, like a new helmet design....

[Theodosius the Great]

Hmm....it seems I stand corrected. It's an odd pose for an infantryman. Earlier I could swear he was carrying a hexigonal shield in the first photo but it's probably rectangular. He also appears to be a bit bigger than the Auxiliary cavalryman in the foreground which breaks the rules of perspective. This isn't the first time I noticed this flaw in Roman art though. Anyway, thanks for catching my mistake, Dr. Bishop.

~Theo

[Theodosius the Great]

Apologies to all those who like segmentata but it is peasant armour. The state might have provided it but the cost was deducted from your pay. Those with the means would have worn hamata, squamata, musculata - anything but segmented plate.

How ironic, then, that Praetorians, who certainly could afford the best armor, are shown wearing segs on Trajan's column. And the Auxiliaries, who had the lowest pay, are shown wearing the 'best' armor - hamata.

Apparently there were no negative connotations associated with segs at least among the civilians living in Rome.

~Theo

[Magnus]

Looking at a rusty mass any saying that something "appears" to be welded tells us nothing.

Judging from the plate in Curle's book, the found pieces of the Newstead mail are not a "rusty mass."

In every occasion when supposed welded links have been assumed further study indicates otherwise.

Do you happen to know of the study showing that Newstead rings were not welded? Could you please provide a reference?

Examining links using x-ray analysis has revealed supposed solid or even butted links to have in fact been riveted. Examining slag inclusions have shown that previously assumed welded links have turned out to be punched.

I suppose there are published works to that conclusion that you know of. Could you please cite them?

Find a single report in which either of the above two methods of analysis have confirmed a link to have been welded.

Again, could you please support your statements to the contrary?

Dan Howard, did you ever post your evidence for the above? Just curious...

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

I won't speak for Dan, but as the one who posted those questions, I would like to comment on what I have found out so far. I corresponded with Erik Schmid on the subject; consequently, he posted in this thread. He commented on the first two of my questions here, and also informed me regarding the third question that unfortunately, there is not really anything published disproving the assertions made in favor of existence of the welded links. On the other hand, as he points out in his post, those were just that - the assertions. Since Erik, I presume, is now watching this thread, I will let him to elaborate if he so chooses.

[mcbishop]

Judging from the plate in Curle's book, the found pieces of the Newstead mail are not a "rusty mass."

No they're not. In fact they are in such good condition that it is not that difficult to see that they have a squarish section which indicates punching and not welding.

Do you happen to know of the study showing that Newstead rings were not welded? Could you please provide a reference?

My own examinations have proven to me they were punched. I have personally examined both the Newstead and the Carlingwark Loch examples in detail and have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that they were made by punching.

This is an issue that should be resolved by the forthcoming monograph on the ironwork by Prof Bill Manning, who is the leading specialist on the Romano-British material. All of the Newstead finds will eventually be republished in a series of monographs (Curle published only a selection of the best) and I suspect the only way to lay this particular question to rest (and from bitter experience I know that there will always be a few people who question personal observation - the Corbridge Hoard taught me that) is for an X-ray image to be published.

Here's what Curle said:

Among the finds from the pit in the Principia (No. I) were pieces of chain mail, reduced by rust almost to a solid mass. They were composed of rings of iron wire having a diameter of about a quarter of an inch (Plate XXXVIII., Fig. 10). These rings were of two kinds. In one case the ends of the wire forming the ring had been hammered flat and riveted together, in the other they appear to have been welded. The two kinds are arranged in alternate rows, a system which was employed in the chain mail of the Thorsbjerg moss.

James Curle was a solicitor in the Scottish Borders who also happened to write one of the finest small finds reports in arguably the finest Roman archaeological report ever produced in Britain. His observational skills were acute ('they appear to have been welded') and he was well-read (hence the Thorsbjerg comparison) and it is important to note that he was not being categorical. The fact the photo differs from his description of the mail as found suggests some form of (pretty radical!) mechanical cleaning took place and that, given the nature of iron and its corrosion products, could mean the artefact as it now exists may have been (not was, note) sculpted to a degree.

Personally, just by the application of Occam's Razor, I would tend to agree with Erik (why weld them if you could stamp them and all the comparable evidence is for stamping?), but we need a definitive publication to resolve this and that is coming. There will be a whole series of events in the coming years to mark the centenary of the publication of A Roman Frontier Post and its People, which remains an archaeological report, the like of which, no British archaeologist now possesses the competence to produce. [Pause to reconsider last sentence - nope, I'm dead right!]

Mike Bishop

[D B Campbell]

... A Roman Frontier Post and its People, which remains an archaeological report, the like of which, no British archaeologist now possesses the competence to produce.

Hear, hear!

[Dan Howard]

Dan Howard, did you ever post your evidence for the above? Just curious...

As has ben said, Erik's response rendered any reply I could have made redundant.

Looking forward to reading Prof Manning's work.

Dan

[Dan Howard]

Apparently there were no negative connotations associated with segs at least among the civilians living in Rome.

So cite a single example of a Roman officer of any kind wearing a segmentata.

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Dan,

In Roman iconography, officers are almost always wearing lorica musculata. I can only think of two or three exceptions where the officer (above centurion) or emperor is wearing scaled armor. Even then the scaled cuirass is in the form of a musculata - very strange :? So, afaik, the Romans almost never deviate from this artistic convention when it comes to officers - even in the late period, including after the fall of the Western Empire.

I wasn't being contradictory about segs being perceived as 'peasant' armor but was suggesting that the perception may have been limited to military circles. In other words, what would civilian artists know about armor ?

OTOH, civilian artists would almost certainly be most familiar with Praetorian armor given the Guard's HQ in Rome. In addition, the Column of MA also depicts Praetorians in segmented armor.

Here are the possibilities as I see them :

• The Guard did not wear their expensive armor on campaign and opted to don segmented armor.
  
• The Guard's equipment did not differ in any way from Legionary armor (as the artwork and some modern authors would have us believe).
  
• Both columns are simply using artistic conventions to differentiate auxiliaries from citizen soldiers and do not even remotely reflect reality.
  
• Any combination of the above.

We do know from Dio Cassius that the Praetorians in his day wore scaled cuirasses. This is also how the Praetorians are depicted on the Arch of Constantine. Although the Guard could certainly afford to buy hamata many of them chose to wear the cheaper, less protective, scale armor.

~Theo

[Tarbicus]

Although the Guard could certainly afford to buy hamata many of them chose to wear the cheaper, less protective, scale armor.

What makes scale less protective? Seems plenty protection to me given how they overlap.

[Theodosius the Great]

Apparently there were no negative connotations associated with segs at least among the civilians living in Rome.

So cite a single example of a Roman officer of any kind wearing a segmentata.

The closest thing to an example I can find is this fresco which is admittedly ambiguous.
The next best is this bronze statue which is thought to be Mars or some other war god.

Although the Guard could certainly afford to buy hamata many of them chose to wear the cheaper, less protective, scale armor.

What makes scale less protective? Seems plenty protection to me given how they overlap.

More prone to damage in battle, IIRC.

Losing a scale creates a larger gap to be exploited than losing a link of mail. In short battles both types probably hold up about equally well, imo. I suspect the story is different for prolonged combat though.

~Theo