Lorica hamata / segmentata

[Matthew Amt]

If that were to be the case, the why did we never see Zulu heavy infantry impis with rawhide body armour and long thrusting spears?
C'mon Matt, you were joking there, surely? :wink:

Okay, the Zulus were stretching it just a tad! But there were unarmored legionaries and hoplites and Vikings.

While I would grant you that 'basically', infantry battles can be compared from the Sumerians to the invention of gunpowder, but iot we really start comparing tactics, of course thing change, change back, then change again. The Romans did not have hoplite tactics, but late Roman tactics look more like hoplite tactics again.

But they don't have to adopt the Greek linothorax or muscled cuirass, nor the Greek style round shield, to use these tactics effectively. Massed spears are certainly different from pila and short swords, but the discussion started specifically with armor types, so my main point is that lorica segmentata is suitable most ancient heavy infantry tactics, if not all.

When economics change and armies shrink, Roman tactics chnge from the large legionary battles of the Republic and the Principate. Of course tactics change!

Economics could be the key.

But arm a Zulu impi withn segmentata, Gallic G's (or whatever) and heavy scutum and they'd be sitting ducks.

I'll admit, I got a little carried away! Zulus are different, they ran like crazy and regularly employed tactics that other ancient armies didn't use (though I think they would have recognized what was going on, probably in an "Oh crap!" kind of way!).

In all fairness, I do think that significant changes in tactics can lead to changes in equipment. But I don't think there was anything being done in the 3rd or 4th centuries (tactically speaking) that couldn't be done in 1st century armor.

If you put it that way, maybe not. But then, also look at how the Late Roman soldier began to look like during the 5th c. and after. It's not so much a break with the legionary, but effectively a deevelopment of the auxiliay: hamata, hasta, oval shield. We need not discuss why the legionary infantry received a different armour, but why the leegionary looked like the auxiliary of the Principate. Scholars have tried to answer this with the changing role of the legionary: instead of 'just' acting as very heavy infantry, their role changed to a more diverse role - a Late Roman infantryman needed to be able to act as heavy infantry as well as light infantry, or even unarmoured raider. That could be an answer as to why thee segmentata became les popular.

Yet first century legionaries could wage very effective guerilla warfare or do sieges or build roads, or (I suspect) take their armor off if necessary. I don't think mail made that possible, or that segmentata inhibited it.

Does an Intercissa helmet really function any differently in battle than a Gallic type G, or give significantly more or less protection? Nope! Helmet fashions had simply changed over time.

Oh yes it did. You can duck behind your shield and put your head in your neck due to the flesxible neckguard, something that's hard to do with a Gallic helmet type, impossible even with the last developments. And you need to do that when crouching behind your scutum, or when you are constantly firing javelins to support your buddies fighting in front of you. Legionary infantry did not do that after they sent their pila flying. Lanciarii did.

Good points, my own Gallic H does keep me from tipping my head back, and I'd neglected the difference between the really honking big Imperial-Italic neckguards and the articulated later ones. BUT we do know that missiles were a constant danger all through a first century battle, and even with my helmet I don't think I'd have a problem staying covered up behind my scutum. It WOULD be easier with a Coolus or an Intercissa! I'm frankly at a loss to explain those honking big neckguards. (I cop out by not explaining! Yoda says, "There is no Why, only Do.")

As discussed before on this forum, this complaint was written down during the Severan period: helmet too big and lance too short. Clearly a need for different equipment due to changing battle circumstances, staright from the sources.

OOOooooo, I like it!! Never heard of that one before, since I don't tend to keep up with the later stuff. My bad. Very cool, thanks!

My own guesss about a seggie being less usable, apart from that cavalry seem to have shunned it from the start, is that the 3rd c. may have seeen circumstances that needed armour to be made as fast as possible, repaired in difficult circumstances (any smith would do) and that therefore only armour that could be made and repaired by anyone and worn by all the military would become the favorite. So yes, a seg would not have beeen unusable during the 4th c., but my guesss is that in most regions, production had stopped during the 3rd c. due to the factors above, and it never went into production again afterwards.
Call that fashion? OK, then that's fashion.

No, I'd say that's mostly economics and logistics, as has also been discussed a couple times before. Mail won out because it was easier to produce and maintain in centralized areas for an expanding army. So not fashion, here, necessarily.

I agree with what you say about no need for more mobility, but as I've argued above, some movements you just cannot make with some helmets.

Agreed. I cheerfully concede the point.

I guess that a segmentata would not hinder you in chucking javelins or crouching behind a scutum.

Nah, not that I've noticed. Well, actually, not many people want to try jumping jacks in a segmentata, since the shoulder motions tend to force the collar plates into the neck! But throwing with one arm doesn't seem to do that.

In case of the segmentata, I agree with you. In case of the Intercisa (or Berkasovo) helmet, the re-introduction of the hasta and the increase of missile firepower, I do not.

Fair enough! Great stuff here, Robert, you Da Man for late stuff. Thanks!

Matthew

PS: Hey, Zulu pikemen with Coolus helmets and katanas, would that work?

[Tarbicus]

Weren't late Roman legionaries expected to ride on horseback when necessary, and that's something segs don't lend themselves to at all very well? If they didn't need to be as mobile in Spain, that could explain why they seem to have kept using the seg so much later there than in the rest of Europe, perhaps?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Which in it self seems strange to me , considering they were considered great horsemen....but perhaps due to having exceptional cavelry, the infantry were not required to.....good spot tarb

[Matthew Amt]

Weren't late Roman legionaries expected to ride on horseback when necessary, and that's something segs don't lend themselves to at all very well?

I keep hearing about how a segmentata is supposed to be bad on horseback, but how can that be? It only comes down to the waist, and doesn't get anywhere near the legs. Cavalry mailshirts were longer than that, and Roman ones were split at the *sides*, which means the excess is going to be bunched up in front of you and behind.

Is there anyone who has worn a segmentata on horseback who can tell us about this? Preferably using a Roman saddle, but any real experience will help.

Valete,

Matthew

[Tarbicus]

I read it here on this ver forum Matt, a few years ago. I wouldn't know where to start searching for the post, but I vaguely recal it having something to do with the Junkelmann cavalry experiments. Is one of the riders wearing seg shoulder pieces on mail or scale armour? It had something to do with the extreme discomfort of a full seg on horseback IIRC. Mail and scale are far more flexible than seg, and when you use your body and legs to control a horse with your legs spread out, the seg ends up digging into your hips continually.

[john m roberts]

We bicker endlessly about the details of armor, but take a look at the big picture. Here's a fun exercise: Make up frontal schematics of the human body, then color in the areas that have been armored throughout Western history: Assyrian, Mycenean, Classical Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Dark Ages, Viking, medieval, Renaissance, English Civil War, on up to modern times. In 90% of cases, maybe more, what's colored in is the torso and as much of the head as is consistent with adequate hearing and vision. What got armored were the parts suceptible to fatal wounds. The arms and legs mostly took their chances. There were periods when more armor was worn, mostly by horsemen, but those were relatively limited. And there was a period from the mid 17th to mid 20th centuries when armor was almost entirely discarded because firearms had made it obsolete, but it made a comeback in the late 20th with the development of new protective materials. Your schematic of one of Tiglath-Pilesar's grunts will be identical to the one of a soldier patrolling the streets of Falujah right now. Then consider the differences in weaponry and fighting styles.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

I don't think any evidence for the Romans using welded lniks exists. Examination of slag inclusions and the uniformity of the rings suggests that they were punched.

In chronological order:

1. James Curle, A Roman Frontier Post and its People: The Fort of Newstead in the Parish of Melrose, 1911, p. 161:

The third variety of body armour, Lorica Hamata, was also represented at Newstead. Among the finds from the pit in the Principia were pieces of chain mail, reduced by rust almost to a solid mass. They were composed of rings of iron wire having a diameter of about a quarter of an inch. These rings were of two kinds. In one case the ends of the wire forming the ring had been hammered flat and riveted together, in the other they appear to have been welded.

2. Simon James. The Excavations at Dura-Europos Conducted by Yale University and the French Academy of Inscriptions and Letters, 1928 to 1937: Final Report VII, The Arms and Armour and Other Military Equipment, 2004, p. 110:

In the absence of X-rays the details of manufacture of the iron mail are obscure. Even the best-preserved fragments are too corroded for us to be certain whether rings were butted (i.e., the ends of the wire forming the rings simply met end to end, without overlapping) or overlapped and riveted, and whether stamped rings were used. Where studied, Roman mail seems to have consisted of riveted and welded rings [ref. to RME 1st ed.], although Sim argues that stamped rings are also to be found.

3. RME 2nd ed., 2006, pp. 241-242:

It is often stated that the rings in Roman mail were alternately riveted and stamped...Curle commented that riveted and welded rings appeared to have been used on mail from Newstead. Likewise, mail from the Danish bog deposits, some at least of which may be Roman in origin, used welded and not stamped rings, which tend to have a rectangular, rather than circular, section. One possible example of Roman stamped-ring mail came from Carlingwark Loch.

[Caius Fabius]

Just looking at logistics, and believing that 'segmentat' is easier to make in a workshop than maille, or at least quicker....
When do we see a huge increase in the Roman Army and troops needing armor at the expense of 'the state' or their generals rather than having each soldier bring his armor from home?
The Roman Civil Wars at the time of Julius Caesar and Augustus suddenly brought dozens of new legions into the field, Where did they get their armor? Is it possible that 'segmentata' was being used even as early as Actium? There is a financial reason to change the equipment, was it better protective (cheaper to keep trained soldiers than to recruit new ones), or was it delivery time, (I need aarmor fast at a minimum cost), or some other factor. I still see most grave stele of high rankers wearing something other than 'segmentata' because.... they could afford better?
Interesting discussion!

[Dan Howard]

In chronological order:

Looking at a rusty mass any saying that something "appears" to be welded tells us nothing. In every occasion when supposed welded links have been assumed further study indicates otherwise. The "square-sectioned" argument doesn't hold water either unless the mail was rarely worn. In short order the corners are worn away. Examining links using x-ray analysis has revealed supposed solid or even butted links to have in fact been riveted. Examining slag inclusions have shown that previously assumed welded links have turned out to be punched. Find a single report in which either of the above two methods of analysis have confirmed a link to have been welded.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Looking at a rusty mass any saying that something "appears" to be welded tells us nothing.

Judging from the plate in Curle's book, the found pieces of the Newstead mail are not a "rusty mass."

In every occasion when supposed welded links have been assumed further study indicates otherwise.

Do you happen to know of the study showing that Newstead rings were not welded? Could you please provide a reference?

Examining links using x-ray analysis has revealed supposed solid or even butted links to have in fact been riveted. Examining slag inclusions have shown that previously assumed welded links have turned out to be punched.

I suppose there are published works to that conclusion that you know of. Could you please cite them?

Find a single report in which either of the above two methods of analysis have confirmed a link to have been welded.

Again, could you please support your statements to the contrary?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I am not an expert, but seeing the mail remains at Verulamium, which are really tiny, I would be amazed to see them weld these link together....true it is a Celtic armour but still......... hock: hock: hock:

[Matthew Amt]

The Roman Civil Wars at the time of Julius Caesar and Augustus suddenly brought dozens of new legions into the field, Where did they get their armor?

Maybe a lot of them didn't have armor.

Is it possible that 'segmentata' was being used even as early as Actium?

Sure! Love to see more pieces with good dates, particularly from that area.

Matthew

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I personally can't imagine it not being in use in Caesars time....

[Tarbicus]

VI Ferrata - Ironclad - 'nuff said :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

[Peroni]

This could also mean a move to iron helmets from copper alloy though Jim.