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The Lateen Sail - A Greco-Roman Invention
#16
The boat is the lower baguette, the sail the triangle with two long sides and one short side - an isosceles triangle (sic) above it. Both are punctuated by vertical lines and in my opinion, it is not evidence for a lateen sail. The illustration is just too stylized to be made any sense of. But wishful thinking has empowered many an academic's theories Big Grin
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#17
I'm having a very hard time seeing anything other than some lines and some other lines crossing them. How can any scientific theory be based on such foundations? It's a bit like looking for the American continent in a small corner of a mutilated Carthaginian coin (believe me it's been done).
Multi viri et feminae philosophiam antiquam conservant.

James S.
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#18
There is an article by George Makris (translated by John Solman), "Ships", in The Economic History of Byzantium, vol. 1, pp. 91-100. On page 96 he discusses the lateen sail, saying that is in, in fact, a Greco-Roman invention.
John Baker

Justice is the constant and perpetual wish to render to every one his due.
- Institutes, bk. I, ch. I, para. I
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#19
Quote:There is an article by George Makris (translated by John Solman), "Ships", in The Economic History of Byzantium, vol. 1, pp. 91-100. On page 96 he discusses the lateen sail, saying that is in, in fact, a Greco-Roman invention.

Found it. P.96:

Quote:One of the radical changes in shipping in the Middle Ages was the introduction of the triangular lateen sail, whose use had begun to spread through the eastern Mediterranean in Roman times and which predominated after the sixth century. This was attached to the mast by means of a long inclined crossbar (in larger ships, this consisted of two elongated, thin wooden bars joined together), and it greatly facilitated tacking (even at angles of more than 30 degrees) and maneuvering. A simple adjustment was sufficient to cause the sail to billow upward, converting part of the force of the wind into a vector that counterbalanced the shallow draft of medieval ships and their smooth keels, thus making it more difficult for them to capsize. The lateen sail, the short length, and the pointed bow and stern (Fig. 1) reduced the risk of the bottom of the ship thumping down violently into the troughs between waves, thus enabling the vessels to sail even when the usual strong northerly winds were blowing. Such specifications are still used today in boat-building in the eastern Mediterranean for small-capacity wooden craft (caiques for fishing or trade, though these are now mechanically powered). When combined with the principle of tacking, these characteristics made it possible for boats to sail even in bad weather.


And Casson summarizes:

Quote:The basic types of sail, then, were all known to the seaman of Graeco-Roman times. He passed on to the
later world not only the square sail but the lateen and spritsail as well.
The only one we cannot ascribe to him
is the gaff-rigged sail (Figure Id). This, like the spritsail, has always been considered a northern invention
of quite late date, probably the seventeenth century. Yet I should not be at all surprised if one of these days
the archaeologists were to turn up a tombstone showing even that type of rig, to make the ancients' contribution
absolutely complete.

Lionel Casson: “The Sails of the Ancient Mariner”,"Archaeology", Vol. 7, No. 4 (1954), pp. 214–19 (219)

So we may add the Lateen sail as one of the most important and far-reaching inventions of Late Antiquity.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#20
Chalk another notch to the score of the ancient mind.
John Baker

Justice is the constant and perpetual wish to render to every one his due.
- Institutes, bk. I, ch. I, para. I
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#21
Tried my luck on the history of the lateen. Apologies for the mediocre English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateen
- Introduction into Mediterranean Sea
- Diffusion to Indian Ocean
- Independent invention in Oceania
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#22
I wonder, if those are also Lateen Sails.
--- Marcus F. ---
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#23
IMO no, it's just the perspective. With a lateen sail, the diagonal spar would point downwards towards the bow, not upwards. These are square rigs.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#24
So the lateen sails in Ben-Hur were correct Smile
(The 'Macedonian' galleys were equiped with them during the naval battle scene)

~Theo
Jaime
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#25
Here is a drawing of a mid 9th century dromon with a Lateen sail, don't know if there are older depictions of that ship type, I mean closer to Ancient times, but you see here that there still some elements from Ancient warhips (plough-like bow desgin etc.)
--- Marcus F. ---
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#26
The Kelenderis ship, dated to around 500 AD, was equipped with a settee sail, a quadrilateral lateen sail (although the excavator has argued that it is a square sail presented in a distorted perspective).
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#27
The Vergilius Vaticanus and Romanus both show ships with Lateen Sails and Spurs in the late 4th century. We also know that the Romans invented Skeleton First construction.
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#28
Quote:The Vergilius Vaticanus and Romanus both show ships with Lateen Sails and Spurs in the late 4th century.

You mean this and this illuminated manuscript?
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#29
Yeah I'm pretty sure I've seen images of lateen sails and stuff in them. I know there's a few images of ships.
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