What were the origional Gladius\'s made out of?

[brennivs - tony drake]

Here is some info of the net
http://www.octavia.net/anglosaxon/Patte ... swords.htm
http://www.vikingsword.com/serpent.html
Regards Brennivs

[Wander]

Brennvs:

First, I apologize; I've gone back and edited to add my name. Thanks for reminding me.

Second, I should not have said, "...there's no evidence to support..." pattern-welded blades, but rather that I've never seen any. Thanks for keeping me honest.

Third: Given the late period you mentioned, were those blades spathae? Because most Anglo-Saxon swords, including the Sutton Hoo sword, were very similar to the spatha in form. It would be interesting to trace the shapes through the dark ages, the Viking blades, and their eventual evolution into the Crusader swords.

It occurs to me that the pigeon droppings might have performed much the same metallurgical function as the horse dung, though if I recall correctly bird guano usually contains a lot of phosphorus (relatively speaking). I'm not sure what the chemical effect of this would be, and I'm sure it would depend on what the bird had been eating.

I'm happy to have found this place, and its collection of intelligent and thoughful contributors. I think I'll like it here!

Wayne Anderson/ Wander

[Wander]

Brennvs:

Thanks for those links; I especially enjoyed the second one.

Reading the first one, I do have to say I always recoil when I hear of someone working "white-hot" steel. A good working heat for most steels is in the orange- to cherry-red range (usually about 2000F down to 1600F), below that it becomes hard. Temperatures from 2000F to about 2200 or 2300F (bright yellow; exact temps depend on the steel composition) are usually in the welding range, and right at the edge of burning. Above that oxidation sets in at a furious pace, reducing steel into worthless slag. I've ruined enough steel that way to remember it (doesn't take much).

Of course, those temp colors are approximate and vary with the lighting; forges are generally kept dim so the colors show brightly.

The first link also said the herringbone patterns were caused by careful grinding. While this is undoubtedly true in many cases, the Sutton Hoo sword was a very complex forged billet of at least eight pieces: Two were twisted right-to-left, two more twisted left-to-right, producing opposite spirals. These were hammer-welded to untwisted pieces, giving herringbone on one side and straight lines on the other; the billet was then twisted, reversing the pattern multiple times. Finally, the steel edge was forge-welded on, after which it would have been fullered, ground, and polished. A sword fit for a king's hand, and a thing of beauty.

Wayne Anderson/ Wander

[Ironhand]

Oh no not the samurai vs. legionnaire thing again. Samurai throughout most of the history of early Japan were predominately horse archers even though people tend to evoke stereotypical Kurosawa type swordsmen imagery more. In a battle of stereotypes the Roman stereotype is a bit closer to historical accuracy from what I've seen. In a battle of stereotypes the Japanese win since :wink: they were all master swordsmen to a man and carried katanas that were unbreakable and could slice a VW bug in half.

The katana / tachi is an impressive weapon, but it evolved in an isolated area as a secondary weapon where its adaptations centered more on lesser details than radical design variances. It was not a magical adamantine form of sword that could be banged edge on edge without damage. Its design was well suited for cavalry oriented warfare (being a saber type design) though Japanese swords have been shown to be as prone to breakage as most other types of sword. Its basic design isn't any better for this factor and katanas can be too rigid and prone to breaking if not made my a smith who knows how to improve the impact resistance of its design. One of the major changes to the katana was during the Nambokucho period where katanas were having difficulty penetrating Mongol armour and becoming damaged. The Nambokucho tachi was made thicker with the edge profile and tip changed for greater stresses. I love studying the Japanese sword for many reasons, but not because it was the ultimate sword and claims that it is such is usually based in stereotype and foolishness by the person claiming it. The person may as well be discussing who would win a fight Hulk or Superman. The Japanese sword was an effective weapon for the samurai who utilized it and is a good general purpose cavalry sword and the methods that were utilized in forging in the various schools of swordsmithing, the history, designs, etc are very fascinating once one gets beyond the elementary school level stereotypical manner of thinking. Swords are tools with advantages and disadvantages to each design and there is no ultimate sword design that is superior to all others.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/nobest.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

[Wander]

LOL! I didn't know they had VW Bugs in Japan. I would have expected the Teutones and Cimbri to be driving Bugs (vs Romans in Fiats?).

Sorry if I brought up an old dead topic; I missed it earlier. Mea culpa.

Wayne Anderson/ Wander

[brennivs - tony drake]

No problem Wander D
Regards Brennivs

[Magnus]

Yeah, let's not re-hash the samurai vs legionary battle lol. (besides, the samurai could have employed muskets and cannon :wink: )

Wayne, I'm not underestimating european swordsmiths...but blade vs blade I have doubts as to whether or not they are on par with a katana. The differential hardening process was a complexity all in itself! Four craftsmen alone were required to make a basic sword: 1) forge the blade, 2) polish the blade 3) make the blade collar 4) create a storage scabbard. That's not including the people who make the fittings and build/wrap the handle, plus build the working scabbard for it. Plus the Sutton Hoo sword is only one of a few examples of euro-swords which go beyond the norm of their utilitarian bretheren. The vast, vast majority of katana are constructed in precisely the same fashion as mentioned above. So even th e lower ranking samurai would still have well designed weapon.

A great book and a fascinating read which will give good detailed information but not bore you is:

The Craft of the Japanese Sword

[Wander]

Matt:

I have to agree the the average samurai would carry a better weapon -- for his purposes -- than the average Viking or Anglo-Saxon, not to mention Roman. Just because a few specialized European smiths (who were regarded as little short of magicians!) could produce exceptional swords doesn't mean everybody did.

(Though I will point out that the really important craftsmen on the katana were only the smith and the polisher. The habaki, the tsuba, the saya, and all the other bits were replaceable, and often were replaced over the years.)

That said, if I'm in the middle of a Roman battle line, I'd hate to try to wield a katana or tachi. The Roman weapons evolved in parallel with their tactics, and were eminently suited to each other.

Wayne Anderson/ Wander

[Magnus]

Yeah...it's an interesting fantasy to think about how japanese weapons and armour would have evolved if Japan wasn't an island...