Posts: 1,600
Threads: 83
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
58
Woe Ye The Vanquished
Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
Caratacvs
Centvrio Princeps Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
Posts: 165
Threads: 11
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation:
0
Brennvs:
First, I apologize; I've gone back and edited to add my name. Thanks for reminding me.
Second, I should not have said, "...there's no evidence to support..." pattern-welded blades, but rather that I've never seen any. Thanks for keeping me honest.
Third: Given the late period you mentioned, were those blades spathae? Because most Anglo-Saxon swords, including the Sutton Hoo sword, were very similar to the spatha in form. It would be interesting to trace the shapes through the dark ages, the Viking blades, and their eventual evolution into the Crusader swords.
It occurs to me that the pigeon droppings might have performed much the same metallurgical function as the horse dung, though if I recall correctly bird guano usually contains a lot of phosphorus (relatively speaking). I'm not sure what the chemical effect of this would be, and I'm sure it would depend on what the bird had been eating.
I'm happy to have found this place, and its collection of intelligent and thoughful contributors. I think I'll like it here!
Wayne Anderson/ Wander
Wayne Anderson/ Wander
Posts: 165
Threads: 11
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation:
0
Brennvs:
Thanks for those links; I especially enjoyed the second one.
Reading the first one, I do have to say I always recoil when I hear of someone working "white-hot" steel. A good working heat for most steels is in the orange- to cherry-red range (usually about 2000F down to 1600F), below that it becomes hard. Temperatures from 2000F to about 2200 or 2300F (bright yellow; exact temps depend on the steel composition) are usually in the welding range, and right at the edge of burning. Above that oxidation sets in at a furious pace, reducing steel into worthless slag. I've ruined enough steel that way to remember it (doesn't take much).
Of course, those temp colors are approximate and vary with the lighting; forges are generally kept dim so the colors show brightly.
The first link also said the herringbone patterns were caused by careful grinding. While this is undoubtedly true in many cases, the Sutton Hoo sword was a very complex forged billet of at least eight pieces: Two were twisted right-to-left, two more twisted left-to-right, producing opposite spirals. These were hammer-welded to untwisted pieces, giving herringbone on one side and straight lines on the other; the billet was then twisted, reversing the pattern multiple times. Finally, the steel edge was forge-welded on, after which it would have been fullered, ground, and polished. A sword fit for a king's hand, and a thing of beauty.
Wayne Anderson/ Wander
Wayne Anderson/ Wander
Posts: 165
Threads: 11
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation:
0
LOL! I didn't know they had VW Bugs in Japan. I would have expected the Teutones and Cimbri to be driving Bugs (vs Romans in Fiats?).
Sorry if I brought up an old dead topic; I missed it earlier. Mea culpa.
Wayne Anderson/ Wander
Wayne Anderson/ Wander
Posts: 1,600
Threads: 83
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
58
No problem Wander
D
Regards Brennivs
Woe Ye The Vanquished
Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
Caratacvs
Centvrio Princeps Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
Posts: 3,817
Threads: 147
Joined: Dec 2001
Reputation:
2
Yeah, let's not re-hash the samurai vs legionary battle lol. (besides, the samurai could have employed muskets and cannon :wink: )
Wayne, I'm not underestimating european swordsmiths...but blade vs blade I have doubts as to whether or not they are on par with a katana. The differential hardening process was a complexity all in itself! Four craftsmen alone were required to make a basic sword: 1) forge the blade, 2) polish the blade 3) make the blade collar 4) create a storage scabbard. That's not including the people who make the fittings and build/wrap the handle, plus build the working scabbard for it. Plus the Sutton Hoo sword is only one of a few examples of euro-swords which go beyond the norm of their utilitarian bretheren. The vast, vast majority of katana are constructed in precisely the same fashion as mentioned above. So even th e lower ranking samurai would still have well designed weapon.
A great book and a fascinating read which will give good detailed information but not bore you is:
The Craft of the Japanese Sword
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité
Legion: TBD
Posts: 3,817
Threads: 147
Joined: Dec 2001
Reputation:
2
Yeah...it's an interesting fantasy to think about how japanese weapons and armour would have evolved if Japan wasn't an island...
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité
Legion: TBD