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Augustine was wrong
#1
In Book 11 of his Confessions, Augustine of Hippo discusses the origin of time. What was God doing, he asks, before he created the universe? Augustine's answer has become famous: before the Creation, time did not exist, so it is useless to ask what happened before the moment of Creation. I always thought Augustine had a point. Now it turns out that he was wrong, after all: go here.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#2
Well, I'd like to know what theories the scientists posit for what happened before the moment of creation. I have no scientific background to defend or acclaim them, but it does intrigue me. And as with many things religious of scientific I don't think St. Augustine's idea will be answered in this world.
---AH Mervla, aka Joel Boynton
Legio XIIII, Gemina Martia Victrix
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#3
Quote:Well, I'd like to know what theories the scientists posit for what happened before the moment of creation. I have no scientific background to defend or acclaim them, but it does intrigue me. And as with many things religious of scientific I don't think St. Augustine's idea will be answered in this world.

The problem with that question is that science doesn't deal with the moment of creation. The big bang theory nicely meshes with the idea, but it is really a distinct concept. If there is now evidence that time existed prior to the big bang, then obviously it can not have been the moment of creation. Thus, if you subscribe to a scientifically moderated version of creation faith, point zero needs to be pushed back. If you subscribe to a purely scientific view, there is no need to assume the existence of a point zero if this pans out. All of which subject to this actually turning out good data and the right interpretation.

BTW, I think it might be a good idea to take this Off Topic. So far, none of opur religious warriors have found it and I'd love to actually have a discussion on the matter, but it's very little to do with ancient civ.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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#4
Quote:I'd love to actually have a discussion on the matter, but it's very little to do with ancient civ.
I think you are right.

[[Adding to the message now that it has been moved.]]

Isn't it remarkable that Augustine had an idea about cosmology that has survived for sixteen centuries? This man was really intelligent, and a very profound thinker.

He was very humane as well. One thing that I've always admired is that, at the end of his life, when Vandals were already infiltrating the Maghreb, he went to Morocco to defend an enemy in a lawsuit. On horseback. Six hundred kilometer. I once visited his tomb - it is in Pavia - and although it was not very much to my taste, I found it impressive.

I know he now has a bad reputation, but I always have the impression that that is for the wrong reasons. Yes, he did have a concubine - as was normal those days. Yes, he sent her back to Africa when she no longer fit in his plans for a career at the imperial court - as was normal those days. Yes, he nowhere mentions her name - which does not betray a cold heart, but that he refused to discredit a lady back in Africa. He was not a saint, but I think he was a friendly, intelligent man. A saint is what he became after his death...
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#5
My theory has always been it is a continuous cycle, explode....implode....explode....implode...ad infinitem!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#6
Quote:My theory has always been it is a continuous cycle, explode....implode....explode....implode...ad infinitem!
That's pretty much in line with the Stoa (and Zoroastrianism).
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#7
Confusedhock:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#8
Google "The Age of the Universe" for an essay by Gerard Schroeder from a combined religious and scientific perspective.

Theologically speaking, God isn't bound by time, so there's only time in the finite (like people, e.g.). When those things are nonexistant, time likewise ceases to be. I won't list any Biblical comments on that, but there are several.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#9
Hmmmm, wonder what else my theories jive with... :?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#10
In his really interesting video A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawkings concludes that the universe must have begun at a single point of time, a moment, if you will.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#11
Quote:In his really interesting video A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawkings concludes that the universe must have begun at a single point of time, a moment, if you will.
In the book, he shows off his intellectual credentials by... quoting Saint Augustine.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#12
Time can also be regarded as something we use to measure change or its affect on universal occurences.

Before man, who kept track of time? God? Why would God keep track if he is infinite and has and always will be. Time is also to a cetain degree an abstract idea. I mean, is there really a present? It appears to me that all things go into the past and that the next occurence is the future of the past.

Time is significant for us since it allows us to keep track of our activities; it is a function of what we must do at a given moment for a series of moments culminates into a historical occurence.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#13
Jona, I guess I'd have to tip my own intelligence hat to the reasoning ability and intellectual acumen of both Augustine and Hawkings. That they agree is not really a surprise. Truth has its ways of being seen, even though the "truth is often harsh", eh?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#14
Quote:Truth has its ways of being seen, even though the "truth is often harsh", eh?
As far as I am concerned, I think that truth -when we are talking about Cosmology and/or the Creation- is incomprehensible. We're simple, small-brained people, probably full of good intentions, but essentially incapable of understanding the greater mysteries of the universe. Which means that all our talk is, in the final analysis, just ad hoc. I think Augustine would agree - in spite of the tone of his writings and his certainty, he thinks in questions, not in answers. (I like the guy, but I think I already said that.)
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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