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Turned Aspis Project in Progress
I thought I had it. Of course, I can't find it. I am looking for it again on the web. It is possible that it is in the Beazley Pottery database. If I go in there, I won't be getting out again for a while - I get lost in there.
Cheryl Boeckmann
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(08-05-2017, 05:19 PM)rocktupac Wrote: Cheryl, that's absolutely beautiful! Your determination is incredible  Smile

And after seeing/reading this thread, there's no way in hell that ancient shields were turned on a lathe! It seemed like a chore to do it with modern machinery, I can't imagine this on a wooden pole or bow lathe. No way.

It would make perfect sense if a continuous drive (which could be achieved quite easily, rather then a bow or a pole) was used, as the weight of the blank would also act like a fly wheel aiding the turner in his work.... having said that George Lailey the last professional pole lathe turner, turned 17 inch bowls on a pole lathe in a "nest" of bowls where multiple bowls are made one inside the other....
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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That's a real treasure, Cheryl! BEAUTIFUL job on the painting.
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As far as I can tell, the serious information on Greek shields is mostly published in Greek and German, such as the PhD thesis summarized in Hoplites at War. The one exception is Philip Henry Blyth's report on the shield in the Museo Gregoriano Etruscano:

Blyth "The Structure of a Hoplite Shield in the Museo Gregoriano Etruscano" p. 12: "Where the original surface of the timber can be seen, it is mostly smooth, but at one point (near the left hand end of the largest fragment in fig. 3) there are circumferential scratches along the inside wall of the bowl. These would be consistent with the use of a lathe, as is suggested by the comic compound in Aristophanes τορνευτο λυρασπιδο πηγός. Alternatively, perhaps, the shield could have been formed by a rotating tool, pivoting at the centre." On the next page he says that there are marks consistent with turning on a shield cover from Olympia.

But I don't know if anyone who practices ancient woodworking techniques has looked closely at the surviving shields, and trained eyes are important. People in the ancient Aegean worked wood very differently than is common in rich countries today.

If you want the full citation to Blyth's article, check publications by Peter Krentz; the Vatican Museum has it in their web shop.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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(08-15-2017, 09:49 AM)Sean Manning Wrote: Blyth "The Structure of a Hoplite Shield in the Museo Gregoriano Etruscano" p. 12: "Where the original surface of the timber can be seen, it is mostly smooth, but at one point (near the left hand end of the largest fragment in fig. 3) there are circumferential scratches along the inside wall of the bowl. These would be consistent with the use of a lathe, as is suggested by the comic compound in Aristophanes τορνευτο λυρασπιδο πηγός. Alternatively, perhaps, the shield could have been formed by a rotating tool, pivoting at the centre." On the next page he says that there are marks consistent with turning on a shield cover from Olympia.

But I don't know if anyone who practices ancient woodworking techniques has looked closely at the surviving shields, and trained eyes are important. People in the ancient Aegean worked wood very differently than is common in rich countries today.

Thank you, Sean. Very helpful.

I'm currently working on carving an aspis from solid slabs/posts of wood. I'm using an adze to hollow out the interior and to round the exterior. Then I will go back and smooth the surfaces with a variety of woodworking chisels. So far it has been easy work to remove large amounts of wood from the lumber. After roughly 20 minutes of swinging my adze, I was able to get to about half the depth I needed to be in the 'bowl' of the shield on two planks -- and I'm far from a professional woodworker, let alone an ancient armorer.

To me, this just seems right. The adze was well known in the ancient world and widely used. Plenty of craftsmen had the skills to make thick planks for carving into, but then to also hollow them out into a bowl. This method also works with the Aristophanes reference; there is no need to further explain or reinterpret anything. The 'lathe hypothesis' is unnecessarily complicated and cumbersome. A far easier explanation would be that the highly mobile, presumably more affordable adze (which requires far less skill to operate compared to a lathe, and only requires a single person to wield compared to at least two with a lathe) was used to remove wood from boards to create a giant bowl that was then smoothed over with a chisel, thus creating what appear to be "circumferential scratches along the inside wall" as Blythe reported.

Think of it in practical military terms as well: a bunch of craftsmen could be taken along with an army on the march to repair shields or to outright make a new one if need be. All they would need is a small toolkit (perhaps ax/hatchet, adze, chisels, knives?). Logistically speaking, this makes more sense as well.

Again, I'm just spitballing here. It's a hypothesis. I'm not claiming to be speaking the gospel or anything. What does everyone think?
Scott B.
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When are you thinking this might happen? Before the Pelopennesian Wars, there really wasn't a long campaign season. Plant your crops, go fight for the summer, go home and harvest...

There are references to shield factories in Athens. The owner (metic, perhaps), his slaves, and his slave-driven turning stations making blanks to be customized to the clients' specs.

Was every shield turned? No, of course not. But some were.

When you get to the "smooth over with a chisel" part of your aspis project, compare the results to any wood turned item before the sanding stage. You will see the difference.
Cheryl Boeckmann
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As I said, I'm really just brainstorming here. I know prior to the Peloponnesian Wars there weren't really any long campaigns; the ease of mobility is more of a bonus (not saying that it's the sole justification for using an adze).

I guess where I get hung up is that there just isn't that great of evidence for shields to be turned on a lathe -- at least I haven't ever been presented with that evidence. From what I know, there is the single and obscure literary reference from Aristophanes. Other than that, I am currently searching for references to shield-making factories (as you mention). As far as artistic representations, I have seen none. You claim there is a vase painting, but until that is presented I have nothing to go off of.

This whole thing is really about uncovering information. I'm fully willing and ready to accept that shields were turned on a lathe (even if only sometimes) as soon as the proper evidence arises. Until then, in my mind, it is an unsolved case.
Scott B.
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There are no surviving aspis artefacts with tool marks consistent with an adze. There are no illustrations depicting an aspis being made with an adze. There are no texts mentioning an aspis being made with an adze. This method of construction is empty speculation. There is more evidence for the aspis being made on a lathe than any other method of construction. If we can't replicate the method today, it is because we have lost the skills, not because the anoients were stupid. IMO they used a lathe that spins horizontally, not the vertical ones we have today.

If you want to make one quickly today then just look up this guy. Smile
[Image: 7e2344cc132cc4c16386.jpg]



I think this is the earliest illustration of a wood turning lathe (from Tut's tomb). It spins horizontally, not vertically. Looks like they are making some kind of cup - hollowing it out from the top down.

[Image: woodCarvingAE.jpg]
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Dan that would be a bow drill....
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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It could be a bow drill but these guys think it is a horizontal bow lathe.
http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/Art...AATAH.html

Here is another horizontal lathe from the Egyptian tomb of Petrosiris. This type is a strap lathe.

[Image: Egyptstone.jpg]
[Image: straplathe.gif]
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Lol.. I thought the same thing, that's a bow drill!


An adze is not a finishing tool. It is for removing chunks of wood and is similar to an ax in function. I wouldn't expect to find an aspis with adze tool marks. Craftsmen, shipbuilders, and cavemen (lol) have been using the adze for eons. I wouldn't necessarily call it empty speculation. Let's not put the cart before the horse, and then kill the horse, just yet. I still think it's worth looking into, and certainly isn't something that we should simply dismiss outright because we like a different hypothesis instead. That's not very scientific or rational.

Where are the depictions of an aspis being made with a lathe?

Where are the texts that mention an aspis being made with a lathe? (Aristophanes doesn't count -- not a good reference and still entirely vague and open to speculation)

That's one crazy huge bowl those guys are carving!!! Wow.. I enjoyed seeing that, thank you! Smile
Scott B.
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For Bow drills see: Tools and Weapons by W.F. Flinders Petrie 1917
there are probably better references though this is a usefull volume....

Hodges" Technology in the Ancient World" says the Lathe image is from 300bc ish so Ptolemaic, and as far as I'm aware is the earliest representation, but probably not the earliest evidence, which would likely come from turned objects themselves, which is apparantly pretty sparse...
He also shows an image of a egyptian bow-drill derived from a 2000bc heiroglyph but there seems to be some confusion there as he also shows a pump drill...

A more upto date source might be this: Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology see pg 356-8 for bowdrills and lathes...

As for large turning wheels you might consider pottery wheels of the low two man variety, at least the idea is there, where one spins the wheel while the other works whats on it.... the greeks apparantly used this type up to the invention of the kick wheell..
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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"Aristophanes doesn't count -- not a good reference and still entirely vague and open to speculation"

Now you've done it!! I'm an old theatre major. Aristophanes counts as much as any other ancient source as far as I am concerned. You don't have to discount biases the way you do for Xenophon and Thucydides. His throw-away line comes from somewhere.

We have no idea how stuff was done back then. I struggle to make sandals because I don't have the right tools (and not going to get them - I don't want to invest in a new line of work). Knowledge of everyday technology falls away quickly. Do you remember party lines (multiple household shared landlines)? I still know how to use one. Haven't had to since the early sixties... I wish someone had written all this stuff down. Maybe they did and it is lost.

Anyway, research Lysias the speechwriter of ancient Athens. His family had a shield factory in Piraeus with 120 slaves.
Cheryl Boeckmann
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Cheryl, I meant no disrespect -- of course Aristophanes counts! I only meant that the Aristophanes reference doesn't count as far as evidence for the use of a lathe. It's specific meaning to us, as with a lot of technology and technique (as you say), is not entirely clear.
Scott B.
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Shields were turned, it's a fact not a theory. Extant remains of wooden shield cores still bear the concentric marks of the lathe. Simply, they were probably first steam bent, and then refined on a lathe, instead of making huge blocks and remove all the material on the lathe. [Stamatopoulou, "The Argolic shield and its technology"]
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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