My reconstruction of Tribuli

[Neuraleanus]

Each stake is four feet long made from solid oak:

Last weekend I set them up on the flood control berm encircling the fort on the Saint Mary River which served as a great stand-in for a roman vallum. We setup our marching camp adjacent to the vallum and I spent a considerable amount of time there doing guard duty. We had splendid visibility from the adjacent road.

[M. Demetrius]

Well made, there, bro. I've often considered a few of those myself. I think I'll make them from different kinds of wood, whatever I find downed in the copse on my property. Elm, juniper, oak, hickory, I can simply not imagine they didn't make them from whatever was nearby. Don't have any pine, but wouldn't it look neat to see different woods?

I've also very seriously considered making them sharp on one end, and blunted on the other, so depending on whether the public will be near, or not, they can be safer or menacing. Just a thought. I'd hate to be responsible for someone falling onto a needle pointed stake in my camp. Might get expensive really fast.

[Neuraleanus]

I think I'll make them from different kinds of wood, whatever I find downed in the copse on my property. Elm, juniper, oak, hickory, I can simply not imagine they didn't make them from whatever was nearby. Don't have any pine, but wouldn't it look neat to see different woods?

The stakes that have been found were made from oak. Of the other kinds of woods, I would stay away from pine as pine tends to warp very easily. Do they have Hickory in Europe? There is no point in using a type of wood that the romans would not of had access to.

[Neuraleanus]

I think I'll make them from different kinds of wood, whatever I find downed in the copse on my property. Elm, juniper, oak, hickory, I can simply not imagine they didn't make them from whatever was nearby. Don't have any pine, but wouldn't it look neat to see different woods?

The stakes that have been found were made from oak. Of the other kinds of woods, I would stay away from pine as pine tends to warp very easily. Do they have Hickory in Europe? There is no point in using a type of wood that the romans would not of had access to.

[M. Demetrius]

The stakes that have been found were of oak, but oak doesn't rot nearly as quickly as elm. I don't know if they have hickory or not in Europe, but I have it in my front yard and to the east of my driveway. I have a 5" hickory that has to be removed. I should be able to get two of these out of that.

I don't have any pine, though many people around here have cut dimensional 4 x 4 and made them, some even have used pressure treated pine, like you'd use for a deck. I don't think pine is a good choice, but it's what many people use. Is it historical? Well, regular pine from the lumber yard is not the same pine as found in Europe, in fact much of it may even be a modern hybrid that didn't exist in ancient times anywhere. Near me, the only pine (about 30 miles away) is called Loblolly Pine. It's not a tall and straight as Ridgepole pine, but it's pretty straight when it grows densely. I might get a tree and cut a few from that.

I'm certain that Blackjack Oak is a Texas variety, and not native to Europe. Likewise, Mountain Juniper isn't either. But I have it all over the place. I'm acting on the assumption that they would have used what they had when they needed it, rather than sending off for a supply of oak from somewhere else, when they needed to make a couple of hundred more stakes to finish off a fort.

In short, not one single species of native tree that is available to me without an import of raw lumber from across the Atlantic is the same wood that would have been available to ancient Romans, and there's little proof that even if I did import European wood, that it would be the same species that the Romans used for the few samples that have been found. (are all of those from the same species of oak? I don't know.) Shall I then just cancel making any because I don't find myself financially able to import certifiably authenticated "ancient wood" from Central and Southern Europe? What did they use in Israel? Africa? Britain? Same species? How do we know?

I'm not taking away from anything anyone else has done. I think the trio you photographed are about as close to what I've seen in picture of the original finds as I've seen anywhere. Naturally, there were different lengths and thicknesses, but that probably had to do with what was available at the time they were made, and I suspect it was simply a function of need and materials present. Chances are they had to be at least a certain thickness so a stout sword slash or axe stroke didn't just cut through them.

FTR, though, Romans, and other peoples in the Mediterranean did and do build things with pine, though it's not quite like the pine around here. And if it warps, so it warps. Green-cut wood will do that when it dries sometimes.

[Neuraleanus]

Shall I then just cancel making any because I don't find myself financially able to import certifiably authenticated "ancient wood" from Central and Southern Europe? What did they use in Israel? Africa? Britain? Same species? How do we know?

Not wishing to start a flame war here, but it is all a matter of degree. In this particular case the evidence strongly indicates the use of a hardwood such as oak. In my opinion, any speicies of oak will do, as as far as I know they all have similar characteristics. Would the romans have used something else as well? Maybe. I just prefer to stick to what we know. I do not like to speculate when there is evidence pointing in one particular direction.

[M. Demetrius]

Ok, and I'm not trying to be contentious, either. All I'm saying is that there are lines, and that we're all free to draw them where we wish. One set of lines is generally not better than another, except in the eyes of the line-drawer. Our available woods, leathers, metals, and fibers are simply not the same, for the most part, as those that were available to the Ancients.

We use wool fiber from different species of sheep. The ancient sheep are no longer in existance. The modern mills typically mix nylon fiber in the selvage, and weave wool on a different sort of loom. Our linen is processed in quite a different way, and our dyes are not typically the ones that were available to the Romans.

The oak I have is not the oak they had. Peoples used elm, ash, pine and oak for boats, planks, beams, tool handles. Here in Texas we have species of oaks that are not native to Europe, along with a number of other woods, both dense and less dense than would not have been available to people living in Rome.

White oak is good for things that need to be bent and formed to shapes, such as barrels or kegs. It likewise swells when wet and closes off gaps between the staves of the barrel. Red oak is strong, and has a straight grain, so is less prone to warping, but doesn't have the same characteristic of swelling and flexibility, so they don't use it for barrels. Live oak isn't really a very good building lumber, as it has more twisted and curved shaped branches.

Any kind of wood could be used for something like these area denial stakes, and I contend it would be whatever wood was the nearest to the need. A pointed pine stick will penetrate just as far into a belly as a pointed oak stick. It's the point that's the point, not the characteristics of the wood.

That oak has survived only indicates empirically that oak has survived. Pine in the same environment for two millennia would be rotted away, as would elm or spruce, perhaps. My whole point in planning to use different kinds of wood is simply to show that the availability of material would vary from place to place. It's not to make a law that the Romans would have done one thing or another.

I understand the major amount of work that has gone into your stakes. Oak is dense and tough, and to make things like that involving removing much material takes its toll on saw blades, arms, and cutting tools. Hope you used some of the dropoff wood for firewood, because oak is among the best.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Well, I suppose as long as its made out of wood lol...

[Magnus]

Yeah, getting that sticky about wood type is a but much. So long as it's hardwood...

What's your segmentata made out of Lee...modern steel by chance? 8)

[Primvs Pavlvs]

I roughed a few of these out of ash with an axe. I took around 20 to 30 per to make. I find the saw cut ones to look a little too clean. I prefer the rougher shape you get from using an axe.

I also think its a bit much to insist they were only made from oak. Heck ash is much stronger than oak.


No, there are no hickory trees native to Europe.

[Neuraleanus]

I prefer the rougher shape you get from using an axe.

Many of the stakes that have been found look to be fairly finely finished. In fact, some of them even have the [owner's?] name on them.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Many of the stakes that have been found look to be fairly finely finished. In fact, some of them even have the [owner's?] name on them.

And several originals that I have seen are rougher made than many reconstructions. Probably made in camp, or as needed.

[Hibernicus]

We have a mix of rough and neatly made... oak, alder, ash, pine, polar bicrh.. whatever was handy. Some are thicker at the handle, some thinnner, some warped, some splitting, some splintery, some new and "pink", some older than dirt...... they are all stored outdoors...

[Magnus]

Yep...I think Sean's right on this one. These, as were pila, an item created on an as-needed basis. I really doubt the roman army would have scoured the land looking only for oak. Whatever wood was handy at the time. They weren't making pianos. :lol:

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for replicating what's been found in the Arch. record, but I don't think we need to rule out modern common sense altogether.

Oh, and paul brought up a good point...ash is much stronger than oak. Definately more suited for weapon purposes...but again...these are pointy wooden stakes we're talking about that get shoved in the ground. I'm sure any decent wood would have worked. (sorry for the double "wood" there).

[Matt Lukes]

Sure, but it's not at all unreasonable to suggest it's better to use known species for reconstructions where possible; species that did exist in the Empire should be the goal not just what's convenient- unless one is simply attempting a mock up or truly has no other alternative. In this case a quick Internet search does show hickory as being a European tree, therefore it seems reasonable to me that a North American species, if not the same one(s) exactly, is reasonable :wink: