Login

05-13-2004, 09:04 PM

From the famous Lacus Curtius. An excellent picture of the suit of banded armour shown on the base of Trajan's Column, with a very, very good close up of the fasteners. www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/Trajans_Column/base.html Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 5/13/04 11:04 pm

Vincula · 05-13-2004, 09:16 PM

I always think that tunic's very Napoleonic!

05-14-2004, 01:08 AM

Is that suppose to be a lorica with manica on each arm?? 
Johnny

Jeroen Pelgrom · 05-14-2004, 05:35 AM

hmm, canÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´t tell, looks indeed like the lorica is continuing on the rightarm. Professionals built the Titanic, amateurs built the ark

05-14-2004, 10:47 AM

If it is a segmentata, it is of a yet unknown type. 
the fastening is by simple buckles slightly offset to the top of each band to allow flexibility. The arm protection seems to be attached to the body, although I suspect that as for the "classic" manica, only the outer part of the upper arm was protected for reasons of flexiblity. 
That is, unless the armourers of that time were able to produce totally enclosed articulated armour similar to the "maximilian" armours of the XVIth Century, in which even the armpit was protected. 
I doubt that, since apparently the sliding rivet had not been developed yet and without sliding rivets you cannot make a late medieval suit of articulated armour. 
This cuirass is shown together with another one of scale construction, associated with a very luxurious helmet that looks like a two piece persian style ridge helmet. 
And that is what makes me suspect that these outfits represent suits of iranian armour. Iranian in this case meaning not the modern country but the irano-sarmato-alan-caucasian cultures. 
So they could represent the panoply of Sarmatian aristocrats fighting as cataphracts/clibanarii. 
Note also the very large scale neckguard on the helmet, big enough to almost cover the shoulders. 
All in all an interesting reconstruction challenge, I should think... 
...And well, the mail shirt has dagged edges again.. 
Buit that is another debate. 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 5/14/04 12:53 pm

05-16-2004, 10:11 PM

Any ideas what the narrow strips are between each of the wide bands? It looks similar to some scale/lamellar constructions such as that on the Mars of Todi. Perhaps the metal bands are fastened to a fabric foundation garment. 
 
Edit: although if that were the case, the large number of buckles would not be needed. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 5/17/04 12:13 am

05-17-2004, 11:12 AM

I could be wrong, but with a lot of assumptions: 
First assumption: this is a metallic cuirass (Could be hardened leather...) 
If its a metallic cuirass the narrow band may represent either piping or rolled up edges. The both provide a smoother flexing than metal edge on edge. Probably quicker to put a piping or roll up the edges than to file them smooth and straight. 
After making a few sketches, I also noticed that for the cuirass to properly function, the bands have to be about twice the width of the buckles in order to overlap properly when flexing. For the same reason the buckles are offset to the top of the bands. 
The second assumption is that it is an armour of segmentata type, e.g. metal strips held together by leather strips. 
A fabric/leather foundation garment could be workable too, the number of buckles can be explained if the undergarment is attached to the cuirass and also opened down the front in order to be able to put on the cuirass like a modern jacket: first the arms ito the arm holes and then buckle down the front. 
I also thought about lamellar. In this case the lamellar would have been either painted or made in gesso. But given the care --and time-- the artist took to depict the neighbouring coat of mail, with every single ring carved out, I suspect that had it been lamellar, the details would have been carved in too. 
As for the narrow bands between the armholes and the manicae, It would be logical to assume --once again-- that they belonged to the body armour and not to the manicae, also for reasons of functionality.

05-17-2004, 06:56 PM

I don't know if it's relevant, but the armour on the base of the column is a triumphal array; the spoils of war. It would be logical therefore if it were Dacian spoils, given that the forum of Trajan was constructed with the spoils from Trajan's Dacian campaigns. 
 
Latest thinking on the column itself is that the spiral frieze from which we get so much onformation is Hadrianic, not done by Trajan and not part of the original decoratove scheme. But the carvings on the base are, I believe, still considered to be contemporary with the Forum, i.e. AD 113 or thereabouts. 
 
Shaun

Vincula · 05-26-2004, 06:18 PM

Quote:<hr>Latest thinking on the column itself is that the spiral frieze from which we get so much information is Hadrianic.<hr> 
Oh? Where does this theory come from?

FlaviusCrispus · 05-26-2004, 08:03 PM

<<Latest thinking on the column itself is that the spiral frieze from which we get so much onformation is Hadrianic, not done by Trajan and not part of the original decoratove scheme. But the carvings on the base are, I believe, still considered to be contemporary with the Forum, i.e. AD 113 or thereabouts.>> 
 
<<Oh? Where does this theory come from? >> 
 
Whoever proposed this theory, it is demonstrably incorrect. Coin struck by Trajan depict the column, and clearly show the spiral band running from bottom to top. Some of the better-struck and higher-grade example actually show little stick figures within the bands. Some "touch up" may have been done on the column early in Hadrian's reign, but the relief itself is clearly Trajanic. 
 
This website is great for studying Trajan's Column: 
 
cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~traj....html#foot 
 
You'll note that the consensus is carving on the spiral relief began before the column drums were all stacked-- meaning the relief could not have been a Hadrianic addition. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA

Crispvs · 05-26-2004, 09:51 PM

Thanks frater crispe for the website - interesting reading. I am not sure that I am comfortable about all of their conclusions though. They say, for instance, that many hands were drilled to accept metal weapons but that some of these were left empty. How do they know this? It seems like an assumption to me. Similarly the statement that the reliefs were carved during assembly contains a number of assumptions. Firstly, they say that it would not have been possible to establish the exact area available for each scene prior to construction. I would suggest that it would be easier to measure the drums while still on the ground and establish the available areas for the various scenes than after they had been placed in position and were thus less accessable. 
Secondly, they say that the alignment of the groundline in certain places shows that the sculpture may have been executed during constuction. Certainly this is possible but there are also other possible reasons for this, especially when it can be shown that certain of the sculpters were less carefull than others in their attention to detail. 
Thirdly, they suggest that the variation in the height of the freize shows that the sculpters did not know how much space they would have available and state that this argues for the sculpture having been done prior to completion. I would suggest that in fact it argues for the opposite: if the sculpture had been planned prior to construction there would have been the opportunity to measure the height of the drums accurately and work out a suitable standard height for the sculpters to employ for the freize. If the freize was not concieved until the column was already standing the height of the column itself would have made it much more difficult to make the accurate measurements which would allow for the much neater sculpture which we know the Romans were capable of. A team of sculpters, all working at different heights on scaffolding around the column may have found it difficult to co-ordinate the sculpture as accurately as they could have if it had been planned prior to construction. 
 
The article which proposed a Hadrianic date for the spiral frieze was published in 1993 or 1994. I don't remember the author's name or which journal I found it in, but I do remember that it was entitled: 'Hadrian's Column of Trajan'. Interestingly, much of the evidence used by the author was numismatic. It is ten years now since I read it so I am a little hazy about the exact arguments now but if you can get hold of it you might find it an interesting read, even if only to check the coin evidence. Jon Coulston may be able to help in tracking it down. 
 
Crispvs

06-02-2004, 06:28 PM

EEEH...... 
 
isnt this a depiction of the spoils of war rather than Roman gear?????? 
 
I think it is..... 
 
so not really Roman but Dacian armour..... 
 
greets.. 
 
M.VIB.M. 
M.VIB.M. 
V COH II 
LEGIO X GEMINA 
EX GER INF

06-03-2004, 10:42 AM

Marcus, methink it's rather Sarmatian armour.

06-03-2004, 01:28 PM

hehehe 
 
anything BUT! Roman..... 
 
M.VIB.M. 
V COH II 
LEGIO X GEMINA 
EX GER INF

Gregg · 06-03-2004, 03:56 PM

ItÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s very interesting armor, though the sculpture shouldnÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t necessarily be thought of as photographic. ThereÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s a possibility that the sleeves were not ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…â€œfull,ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â

Login
Username:
Password:	Lost Password?
	Remember me

Possibly Related Threads…
Thread		Author	Replies	Views	Last Post
	Why banded armor (lorica segmentata)? Why not breastplates?	fretensis10	36	10,522	04-24-2006, 05:38 PM Last Post: Marius_Ursus