Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra

[Aurelia]

I'd imagine Cleopatra who was highly educated in many things, would've known about these types of poisons.

Indeed, she had extensive knowledge about cosmetic properties of plants, so it may be safe to assume that she knew the dangerous ones as well.

[Paullus Scipio]

Tarbicus/Jim wrote:-

but if I was on a jury I'd probably go with a murder conviction

.....and were I on that Jury, I would vote 'guilty' too !! :wink:

Worth bearing in mind though that under the judicial system of the English -speaking world, the Judge would direct said Jury to acquit, because all the evidence is circumstantial ( no witnesses), and there is no "proof beyond reasonable doubt."
Exit a smiling Octavian, hailed by Aggrippa and Maecenas, and proclaiming to the crowd that his 'trial' had "proved" his innocence", as happens so often in modern times. :roll:

( Being found 'not guilty' because of a high standard of proof demanded in criminal matters is not the same as 'innocent' at all ....which is why I like the old Scottish system of three possible verdicts, viz, 'Guilty', '
'Not Guilty' or 'Not Proven'.
Our system is based on "Better ten guilty men walk free than one innocent man suffer"! )

But we on RAT need not bind ourselves to such high-minded rules!

Anyone care to set up a poll. so a RAT 'Historical Jury' can deliver a verdict ? )

[M. Demetrius]

All you say is true, barristers. :wink:

We have left the original thesis, though, and if Augustus had put Cleopatra to death, or ordered it so, I think he'd just have said so. It was normal enough in those days to kill the defeated monarch, particularly one with whom he had personal differences, and was the mother of Caesar's son, a potential trouble for later times. That would have been no shame for him, although I suspect he'd rather have her ritually killed in a public spectacle at a triumph after the reconquest of Egypt.

I still don't see why it's so hard just to accept that she committed suicide by venomous snake. That's what the ancient accounts seem to agree about, and it's not the least farfetched, though in similar circumstance, I think I'd go with something quicker that was administered either orally or by steel. Any of the three were honorable ways out at that time.

Whether the queen knew how to mix and formulate poisons, cosmetics, or egg omelettes isn't really the important question, as she had numerous people to do things like that, and probably didn't get her hands dirty in the garden, either, planting leeks. She more likely relied on those under her authority to do mundane tasks, like other monarchs of her day.

[M. Demetrius]

Here's some more book references on Cleopatra:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/cleo ... a.htm?nl=1

[Jona Lendering]

Here's some more book references on Cleopatra:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/cleo ... a.htm?nl=1

I read it, it's nice.

[Iulia Cassia Vegetia]

Why would people want to watch criminals getting eaten by lions?

We would do well not to forget that people in our past sometimes liked really, to us, weird and nasty stuff.

But nowadays people watch this stuff on TV or at the cinema. So has the thirst for blood and gore really changed that much? :roll:

This is a most fascinating discussion. I never really bought the suicide story, :wink: I always figured that Cleopatra was assassinated.