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A Roman site in The Netherlands - 150 km north of the Rhine!
#1
Not new, but the excavation has been prolonged for two months because of the unique finds:<br>
<br>
Report from Radio Nederland about the<br>
Bloemert excavation in Drenthe, The Netherlands:<br>
<br>
"The Roman Empire has been well documented. Over the years written history and archaeology have brought to the surface, sometimes literally unearthed, a whole society. Thus Roman architecture, religion, military strategy and legal structures hold little mystery. Compared to this depth of knowledge, many of those living outside the boundaries of the Empire are lost in time. But now an archaeological excavation in the north of the Netherlands had begun to tell the story of the Roman's neighbours."<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 5/30/04 8:10 pm<br></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#2
Enjoyed this one. Thanks. <p></p><i></i>
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#3
Was it Batavian country then? Or Frisian?<br>
More Batavian, I think, the Frisians being a bit more to the south. <p></p><i></i>
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#4
It's exactly the other way around. The Batavians were just on the border, settled in the Rhine/Meuse/Waal lowlands, while the Frisians (Friezen) used to live in the area now called, wait for it...Friesland! <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#5
I think Antoninus confuses the Frisii with the Frisiavones . The Frisiavones were a little bit more to the south(west) of the Batavians, or am I wrong?.<br>
<br>
Hans <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hansvl@romanarmytalk>hansvl</A> at: 6/1/04 3:51 pm<br></i>
Flandria me genuit, tenet nunc Roma
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#6
Antoninus,<br>
<br>
Either way, we're not talking Frisians or Batavians here. The area is already known as Saxon during the 3rd century, with Salian Franks, Chamavi and Tubantes to the south, and just before that Chauci to the north.<br>
In this period, the original Frisians had vanished, and the new groups in 'Friesland' took their name from the land 'Frisia', but they were much more related to the Saxons, Angles and Danes to their east, who will become a new menace for Britannia and Belgica shortly afterwards.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#7
Quote:</em></strong><hr>The area is already known as Saxon during the 3rd century, with Salian Franks, Chamavi and Tubantes to the south, and just before that Chauci to the north. <hr><br>
<br>
I know you have read a little more about the early Anglo-Saxons than I, Vorty, but I would be careful making these bold statements. The "Sahsnotas" were something of a loose confederacy, and I would hesitate describing the people of Drenthe as already being part of them. The original heartland was further to the east, although it is true that by Merovingian times the people of Drenthe had joined the Saxons (or had been absorbed by incoming Saxons? Don't know enough about the history of Drenthe...).<br>
As for the Frisians, I know of this theory but I have my doubts. The temporary disappearance of the tribal name from Roman sources is hardly evidence for the "extinction" of the people; the tribal name could have "disappeared" by virtue of the Frisians becoming grouped with other Germanic tribes, then "suddenly" re-appearing later on. Perhaps they were always there (albeit in a land threatened by rising sea levels), they just weren't mentioned by the meagre sources under that name!<br>
Tribal identities were flexible, with groups joining, splitting, re-joining, disappearing from literary view for a while, then re-appearing again.<br>
Settlement and cultural continuity - or lack of them - may be proven through archaeology, but my impression is that we don't know enough to say anything really conclusive about that when it comes to the population of the modern provinces of Friesland and Groningen. We have theories of course...<br>
In the case of "the modern Frisians are not the ancient Frisians" theory one that is likely to enrage any self-respecting Frisian...which for some persons may be part of the appeal <p></p><i></i>
Andreas Baede
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#8
Yep. I checked on a modern map and compared to the one drawn from Tacitus' "Germania". The province of Drenthe is East of what was known by Tacitus as the Frisii Maiores. According to good old Tacitus the province of Drenthe was then inhabited by the Chasvarii.<br>
Now what remains to be figured out is at what period was that site abandoned, or destroyed. The coins shown to illustrate the story are 2nd century AD.<br>
Maybe the place was active during the High Empire and was destroyed/abandoned during the great upheavals of the middle 3rd C.AD? <p></p><i></i>
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#9
Chariovalda,<br>
I have no sympathy or time for those who see Friesland as Frisian from the word go. There are those who would happily counter the first Beaker folk as Frisian, I'll not dwell on that any further.<br>
You're right about Saxons, although the term is used so loose that we could count (for want of a name) some peoples as Saxon because they would later belong to that group anyway. But you're right to be cautious. I seem to have placed the re-population a little too early anyway.<br>
<br>
About the 'old' Frsians leaving Friesland, that of course we can't be completely sure of. But archaeology finds that the settlement decrease sharply, and the traditional Frisian pottery vanishes (though some is found in Flanders and Kent) to become very much like that of the Chauci/Saxon neighbours to the east. some propose they mixed with the Chauci to form the Franks, but I thought these originated a little further south (though it remains possible) and there were more groups involved anyway.<br>
So if they did not vanish, they moved away and assimilated with other groups.<br>
<br>
Why they would not be named under their own name I don't understand. After all, they named the land, and (if any) new groups took their name from that land! So how could the Frisians be there under their own name, in their own land, and yet not be named? I know you're not fond of theories in which our native land seems to become very empty, but in this case it sure looks like it.<br>
<br>
Antoninus,<br>
While tacitus is too far back to tell us something of the 3rd century, it might fit very well if it turned out that the site was abandoned by then. Which would leave us in the dark if it were Chasuarii or another group that settled in Drenthe.<br>
<br>
To be continued, I hope.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#10
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Yep. I checked on a modern map and compared to the one drawn from Tacitus' "Germania". The province of Drenthe is East of what was known by Tacitus as the Frisii Maiores. According to good old Tacitus the province of Drenthe was then inhabited by the Chasvarii.<hr><br>
<br>
Antoninus, Tacitus is often pretty vague, placing peoples in relation to each other in very, very general terms. Other maps, equally based on Tacitus, place the Chasuarii east of Drenthe. The German re-enactment group of the same name would probably be surprised to discover that they are really Dutch...that doesn't mean the Chasuarii didn't live in Drenthe, it just means...we don't really know!<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have no sympathy or time for those who see Friesland as Frisian from the word go. There are those who would happily counter the first Beaker folk as Frisian, I'll not dwell on that any further.<hr><br>
<br>
Now what kind of answer is that? Didn't mention the Beaker Folk, or the Fuzziewuzzies, or Wadden seals...and I'm not Frisian either...<br>
<br>
Point is, we have Frisians in the same general area before, and after the period they are not mentioned in Roman sources. That requires an explanation. Is it because the sources are meagre and incomplete? Or did the Frisians really vanish?<br>
<br>
As for a partial depopulation, so what? That happened several times in history, doesn't mean that the people left stopped being Frisian. A change in pottery could be part of a general process of cultural change - Germanic peoples were NOT static, as you well know.<br>
As for the Frisians being part of another Germanic group for a time - or being counted as part by not particularly scientifically rigorous Romans - why is that implausible?<br>
Subgroups could have continued using the Frisian name, while part of a larger group with a different name. Ever heard of the term "subtribe", loose as it is?<br>
And why would that theory be more implausible than having the Frisians becoming (in a cultural-political sense) extinct but leaving their name in the land itself, to be adopted by later settlers?<br>
<br>
We simply don't know. My problem with your remarks about the Frisians is that you were presenting an opinion (one that can be defended scientifically, but is very far from certain) as a fact.<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Andreas Baede
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#11
No no, that was not directed to you but to those 'self-respecting Frisians' you mentioned, or those worse than that who are a tad nationalistic. My remark meant that I don't think for one minute about hurting their self-respect!<br>
<br>
As for the 'missing Frisians', well, what explanation would be the more simple one? We both accept that the frisian lands became less populated, but I see them largely gone while your theory has them invisible.. Mhhh. We seem to have discussed this before.<br>
<br>
OK, I'll grant you that some sort of continuation must have taken place for the name to be used in later times. The rest is as you say speculation, where you see the population continuing but adapting (right?), and I see them largely gone and the remainder assimilated by newcomers.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#12
I don't see it either way, Vorty, I just think WE DON'T KNOW! Which leaves a lot of room to speculate, which I'm not overly fond of. <p></p><i></i>
Andreas Baede
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#13
Um yes of course, we don't know, <em>but then what are we doing here discussing all this anyway</em>? or write articles, or books.. I mean, this Friesland is not that remote, you know, there <em>have</em> been archaeological finds and so on. I think it is safe to form an opinion, even though you know we will <em>never</em> know the truth. And opinions may be discussed and defended, even with that knowledge at the back of your head,<br>
But this is a forum, not a scholarly article, and we are allowed to discuss opinions, and discuss them without footnotes.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 6/2/04 11:49 pm<br></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#14
A few non speculative facts:<br>
During the Augustan period the Romans conquered a big chunk of Germany beyond the Rhine at one point reaching the Elbe, under Drusus.<br>
After that they used their usual method to try and colonize the place, by setting up conciliabula. They were market places made up of a forum and a temple for the worship of the emperor. The method worked fine in Gaul but was a total failure in the less civilized lands of the free Germans.<br>
In 9 AD the disaster of Varus was apparently accompanied by the torching of the conciliabula in free Germany. That is archaeologically attested.<br>
That's one thing.<br>
We also know through Tacitus and others that the Dutch people of that time, e.g. the Frisians Maiores and Minores and the Batavians had a close and mostly peaceful relationship with the Romans. The Batavians provided fine auxilia for the army and the Frisians had only to provide one hundred oxhides a year, which is not really much as far as taxes go..<br>
Actually, it seems to be more symbolic than anything else.<br>
I do not think it is speculation to imagine that these relations were accompanied by the setting up of markets where people could do business together. The existence of such a place in Drenthe, some two days' march away from a territory that was more or less controlled by Rome, or allied with Rome is not really a surprise, actually. That place in Drenthe was probably a conciliabulum or a commercial outpost of some kind, maybe associated with the amber trade, although the more direct amber route went from the Aesti straight south and across the Danube.<br>
The rest is indeed a matter of imagination, but not speculation, based on a few well known facts: People travel far and wide, some are bold adventurers, explorers and businessmen and generally speaking people are more interested in doing business together than fighting against each other.<br>
I am thinking of all the Marco Polos of those times, who unfortunately did not leave any written account of their voyages deep inside free Germany and certainly far beyond..<br>
I suspect we'd be really surprised..<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#15
and don't forget the Roman finds in Norway and Sweden, or even the finds in Ireland.....<br>
<br>
now we only have to wait till Greenland comes up with a frozen QvINQvEREME....<br>
<br>
hehehehehe<br>
<br>
<p><span style="color:yellow;font-family:times new roman;font-size:medium;">M.VIB.M.<br>
V COH II<br>
LEGIO X GEMINA<br>
EX GER INF</span></p><i></i>
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