Battle of Leuktra 371 BC

[Paullus Scipio]

Gentlemen, I fear we are in danger of being a little too pedantic here! I doubt very much if the lot of a serf/helot in Lakonia working for an absentee Master differed significantly from that of a peasant crippled with debt working for an absentee landlord in Attica....they both worked from sun-up to sun-down for someone else!
(Just a minute, so do most of us!!?! )
If Sparta did not degrade human beings in the way that Athens did in the mines at Laurion, I would suggest it was largely because there was no silver in Lakonia !

Epaminondas' strategy for curbing Spartan power by creating twin 'fetters' in the form of a self-governing independent Messenia ( thus depriving Sparta of over half it's wealth/economy), and founding Megalopolis were certainly effective - Sparta's prospects for Pan-Hellenic hegemony would never recover. In that sense, Leuktra (hurrah! ...back on-topic ) proved to be a real watershed in Spartan history.
Alas, even the genius of Epaminondas could not overcome the flaws and bitter rivalries of Greece's polis(city state) system, as the fact of Mantinea showed.
It is a sobering thought that a mere 27 years after Epaminondas' premature death, Thebes would be wiped off the face of the Earth by Alexander.......

[PMBardunias]

Quickly, as I need to get to the office. The Messenian helots were, in no real way, "free".... This by might of arms. This is no anti-Spartan "propaganda"; rather history as we know it. Thus the helots were always ready to “eat the homoioi alive

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[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:-

I surely never said that Spartans did not degrade the Helots.

.......and I never said they did degrade Helots! I fear you misunderstand my point, which was merely that the horrific treatment meted out to Athens mine slaves, and which did not ( as far as we know) occur in Lakonia was not because of any high 'morality' on the part of the Homioi, but simply because they didn't have silver mines to exploit.

As to the Helots status, if to kill a slave capriciously is to throw away money, what then of capriciously killing a serf who whilst allocated to you, technically belongs to the State? To 'declare war' against the Helots annually, so as to justify capital punishment/killing is one thing, to actually carry it out is another. If the Krypteia did terrorise Helots by 'liquidating' trouble-makers on behalf of the State, then how is that significantly different to the KGB or CIA doing the same in our own times?
I believe any tales of 'mass culling' are for the most part propaganda....either by Sparta's enemies, or put out by Sparta herself, so as to 'cow the helot population'.....who would know ? There is a suspicious lack of evidence (such as talk of mass graves) beyond the mere tale, and given folk memories survive for generations, what helot would ever volunteer for Hoplite service ever again?
Which brings me to another point. There is a clear difference between Messenian helots and Lakonian helots. The latter evidently felt as if they 'belonged' to Lakonian society, as their persistent loyalty and repeated willingness to serve as Neodamodeis Hoplites, and serve well, demonstrates. ( And for Sparta, a cheap alternative to mercenary Hoplites)........and that they themselves felt their status was different from that of slaves. ( Athens could not utilise its massive slave manpower for military purposes, save in dire need it freed slaves to act as rowers....you can't run away on a ship.)

[PMBardunias]

...merely that the horrific treatment meted out to Athens mine slaves, and which did not ( as far as we know) occur in Lakonia was not because of any high 'morality' on the part of the Homioi, but simply because they didn't have silver mines to exploit.

I agree its probably impossible to run a benevolent slave mine, but to cut through this recurring misunderstanding, Spartans seem not to have extended a "moral" code to their dealings with helots any more than they would the managing of their game populations in the mountains for hunting. Spartan "morals" were generally external and based on the perception of others. One example of a merciful Spartiate I can think of is the "saying" where the Spartan says: "were I less angry I would kill you." Not something we would recognize as morally "good", simply a wish to not seem out of control. Since the only impact desired on Messenian helots was cowering fear, we would not expect "mercy" as our moral code defines it. Mercy was saved for thier greek foes- as in not persuing hard after victory in battle or razing defeated cities- and was always expedient and based on a calculated result.

As to the Helots status, if to kill a slave capriciously is to throw away money, what then of capriciously killing a serf who whilst allocated to you, technically belongs to the State?

Population control. If killing one state-owned serf keeps a thousand quiescent, then it is good policy. If that one slave were owned by an individual, then the cost would be felt acutely. There does not seem to have been a shortage of helots.

If the Krypteia did terrorise Helots by 'liquidating' trouble-makers on behalf of the State, then how is that significantly different to the KGB or CIA doing the same in our own times?

Leaving aside that I am unaware of the CIA slaughtering american citizens in great numbers and only fear their incompetance, the KGB analogy may not be so far off, since it grew out of a tradition of terrorizing serfs under the Romanovs not so dissimilar to Helots.

Which brings me to another point. There is a clear difference between Messenian helots and Lakonian helots. The latter evidently felt as if they 'belonged' to Lakonian society, as their persistent loyalty and repeated willingness to serve as Neodamodeis Hoplites, and serve well, demonstrates. ( And for Sparta, a cheap alternative to mercenary Hoplites)........and that they themselves felt their status was different from that of slaves. ( Athens could not utilise its massive slave manpower for military purposes, save in dire need it freed slaves to act as rowers....you can't run away on a ship.)

Thanks for pointing this out so forcefully, I have been confining most comments to Messenian helots. As you note, Laconian helots were a different beast. The fact that so many could afford to buy their freedom shows this dramatically. I believe that Laconian helots probably viewed themselves as a caste of Lakedaimonia- like low caste Hindus, though perhaps less accepting of the status- while Messenians were never truly integrated into society and retained a conquored population status. The main difference being that a Laconian helot might want to move up within Laconian society and a Messenian would simply want to cast off Laconian the presence.

To tie this back into the thread, the helot situation in Messania and Laconia must be understood to make any sense of the Theban policy following Leuktra- and more importantly why it was impossible to "liberate" the Laconian helots in the same way.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B wrote:-

Leaving aside that I am unaware of the CIA slaughtering american citizens in great numbers and only fear their incompetance

.... :lol: :lol: :lol: ....without wishing to give offence, or venture into modern politics, the analogy I had in mind was not that the CIA ( Krypteia) killed/terrorised U.S citizens ( Homioi) but rather the poor (helots) in neighbouring Central/South America (messenia)......my apologies if that analogy is distasteful. :oops:

[Paralus]

Never said they were "free", I said they were serfs, which your description of them as a complete captive population confirms. They simply were not slaves.

You have misunderstood. I was not asserting that you did; merely pointing out that they were not, in any way, "free" so as to indicate their serf status.

I've not the time at present and will likely return to this tonight. In the meantime an observation on this subject made some 2,300 years ago, is as cogent today as then:

The condition of the helots among the Spartans is of all Greek forms of servitude the most controversial and disputed about, some approving it some condemming it.

Plato, Laws 776C

Theopompus was in little doubt though (FGrHist 115):

They are those who have been enslaved (katadedoulomenoi]) for a very long time by the Spartiates, some of them being from Messenia, while the Heleatai formerly inhabited Helos in Lakonike.

[PMBardunias]

.... ....without wishing to give offence, or venture into modern politics, the analogy I had in mind was not that the CIA ( Krypteia) killed/terrorised U.S citizens ( Homioi) but rather the poor (helots) in neighbouring Central/South America (messenia)......my apologies if that analogy is distasteful.

It would be difficult to diminish my esteeem for the CIA (read that as you may :wink: ). But your clarification goes to my point. Whether its nuns in Central America or Messenian helots, this type of terror is used to keep conquored alien populations down. Controlling one's own citizens, or their property (slaves) must follow more subtle means, usually invoking the threat of an outside force (with the caveat that the definition of citizen is infinitely malleable.)

[Sean Manning]

.... ....without wishing to give offence, or venture into modern politics, the analogy I had in mind was not that the CIA ( Krypteia) killed/terrorised U.S citizens ( Homioi) but rather the poor (helots) in neighbouring Central/South America (messenia)......my apologies if that analogy is distasteful.

It would be difficult to diminish my esteeem for the CIA (read that as you may :wink: ). But your clarification goes to my point. Whether its nuns in Central America or Messenian helots, this type of terror is used to keep conquored alien populations down. Controlling one's own citizens, or their property (slaves) must follow more subtle means, usually invoking the threat of an outside force (with the caveat that the definition of citizen is infinitely malleable.)

A very interesting thread; laus to you and Paralus. I'll stay well out of the main thread, but I'll note that the methods used to control large slave populations in the modern New World were hardly subtle. Random killings were more a feature of the initial conquests or when the ruling class feared it was loosing control, though ...

[PMBardunias]

I'll stay well out of the main thread, but I'll note that the methods used to control large slave populations in the modern New World were hardly subtle.

To illustrate what I mean, think of a slave owner in the southern US. He would beat his slaves- torture, rape, and famously, cut off half a foot, but he is unlikelt to kill one. This is because the slave is owned as property and has a dollar value attached to him- better to sell him off even for a small sum. If the government sent out agents to kill your slaves, thus rob you of your property, they would face a revolt of slave-owners.

A serf on the otherhand is not worth money as an individual, he comes with the land purchased. As such he is a value-added to the land, but if you only need 50 serfs to run the farm and you have 55, then you lose no money in killing 5 to cow the rest, because those five cannot be sold individually. In general serfdom is preferable to slavery because you have much more control of your own body and family- your children don't get sold off. But, having no individual value to the lord, as long as there are enough of you, you may be killed out of hand with no loss to him.

[PMBardunias]

Theopompus was in little doubt though (FGrHist 115):

Quote:
They are those who have been enslaved (katadedoulomenoi]) for a very long time by the Spartiates, some of them being from Messenia, while the Heleatai formerly inhabited Helos in Lakonike.

Or was he...

Theopompus F122: The Chians were the first Greeks after the Thessalians and Spartans to make use of slaves (douloi), but they did not aquire them in the same wasy as these. For the Spartans and Thessalians…recruited their slave populations from the Greeks who had previously inhabited the country they now control, the Spartans from the Acheans, the Thessalians from the Perrhaiboi and Magnetes: and they called these whom they enslaved respectively Helots and Penestai.

And as Pollux points out:

3.83 Between free men and slaves (douloi) are the Lakonian Helots, the Thessalian Penestai, the Mariandynian Dorophoroi, the Argive Gymnetes, and the Sikyonian Korynephoroi.

Thus something less than free and more than slaves- serfs. The concept is not all that foreign to greece, merely the degree and the amount of negative attention paid to it by Sparta's foes.

[quote]FgrHist 348F4: They called the Marianynoi (of Herakleia Pontica) Drorphoroi (gift-bearers) to take away the sting of the word “slavesâ€

[Paralus]

I'd be interested to learn - broadly - what disagreements you have with Sparta and Lakonia: A Regional History 1300 to 362 BC. I personally find Cartledge's frank assessment of Sparta rather in concord with my own. Agesilaos and the Crisis of Sparta is also worth the eye-strain.

[Sean Manning]

I'll stay well out of the main thread, but I'll note that the methods used to control large slave populations in the modern New World were hardly subtle.

To illustrate what I mean, think of a slave owner in the southern US. He would beat his slaves- torture, rape, and famously, cut off half a foot, but he is unlikelt to kill one. This is because the slave is owned as property and has a dollar value attached to him- better to sell him off even for a small sum. If the government sent out agents to kill your slaves, thus rob you of your property, they would face a revolt of slave-owners.

A serf on the otherhand is not worth money as an individual, he comes with the land purchased. As such he is a value-added to the land, but if you only need 50 serfs to run the farm and you have 55, then you lose no money in killing 5 to cow the rest, because those five cannot be sold individually. In general serfdom is preferable to slavery because you have much more control of your own body and family- your children don't get sold off. But, having no individual value to the lord, as long as there are enough of you, you may be killed out of hand with no loss to him.

Ok, that makes sense. The insufferable pedant in me wants to point out that not all serfs were so oppressed, though. If helots could really be killed out of hand with full state sanction for being uppity, they were worse off in that respect than most slaves and most serfs.

[PMBardunias]

I'd be interested to learn - broadly - what disagreements you have with Sparta and Lakonia: A Regional History 1300 to 362 BC.

Nothing off hand jumps to mind out of that work in particular. That was his Thesis wasn't it? My problem with him is that he can be wildly inconsistant, seeming to contradict his own works. He reads at times like an apologia for Spartiates- in the modern sense where contrition must be combined with self-flagelation. Overall I find him more rational than most of those who come down either pro- or anti-sparta. I often wish he would make bolder stands on various topics, rather than follow the convention so veiled by "Le Mirage." The use of the word slave would be a case on point, I hope I have at least given people thought to question the propriety.

My biggest problem is with some of his ideas about Spartan pederasty, but that is not a topic for this site, and many have already read my diatribe on the topic.

[PMBardunias]

If helots could really be killed out of hand with full state sanction for being uppity, they were worse off in that respect than most slaves and most serfs.

I agree. They would be on the severe end of serf-dom. Think of Japanese peasants who might just happen to meet a samurai with a new katana at a crossroads and get himself bisected, the peasant who's daughter is subject to the "Prima Nocte," or the proverbial lot of the Russian serf.

[hoplite14gr]

Sparta - Lakonia. To ancient Greeks it was at periods the same,

I Athens i.e. you could be charged "EPI LAKONISMO" and exiled.
The term "EPI SPARTIATISMO" hasn´t bee found.

Also "Laconiszein esti philosophein" in a free translation: talking with short accurate phrases like the Laconians is the philosopher's way.

Kind regards