Legio V survivors?

[Arminius Primus]

Ave,

Another Balkan conundrum..... One of my jobs is to look after the Minorities here in my small part of the Balkans. One of the more interesting and successful groups are the Vlah.

It is difficult to find information on them from the web. Found a fairly detailed linguistic study about Aroman speakers but other sources are politicized.

Speaking with community representatives, I was priviliged to hear some of their oral traditions. Their name for themselves are <(Tsentse) spelling? > from the latin quinque.

When I asked about that use of the term, I was told that the Vlah within Macedonia are the descendants of the Vth Legion. Hence they call themselves the Vth.

So here come the questions...

Has anyone else heard of this claim?

Does any other ethnic group claim descendancy from a specific legion?

How plausable is this?

Does anyone know of any sources that either refute or support this premise?

Are there any cultural or linguistic markers that could be traced back to a legion heritage?

My head is spinning with a lot more questions but thought that these would spark some discussion.

Regards from the Balkans, Arminius Primus aka Al

[Jona Lendering]

Has anyone else heard of this claim?

No, it's new to me.

Does any other ethnic group claim descendancy from a specific legion?

Not that I know of; nor does Ritterling mention any such claim in his RE article on the legions.

Does anyone know of any sources that either refute or support this premise?

I visited Vlachs in Greece, near Almyros. They were blond (blonder than the people from the plain in any case), had blue eyes, and claimed they were descendants from Achilles' Myrmidons... I think it was just an invention to please the Thessalian Greeks. When I asked whether they had something to do with Wallachia, they said they did not know.

[hoplite14gr]

Some encyclopaedias of 1910 to 1920 linked the word Vlach with Walcher and other places where the root word exists and said it had to do with roman military colonies. But military colonists could be of any origin as the legions started becoming "foreign legions" .

Here in Greece Vlachs proudly claim their Heritage from Evritanes and Perraivians.

There are people outside the north Greek border who identify themselves as Vlachs and claim to be different from Albanians and Skopjians and some of them who form 1990 found themselves here they claim Greek origins.

Kind regards

[jkaler48]

DNA studies would perhaps shed some light of origins of different population
groups. One study found the that a teachers family in Chedder England had lived in that location since before the time of Rome!

[Jona Lendering]

DNA studies would perhaps shed some light of origins of different population groups.

... although one must keep in mind that DNA research can not prove how ethnicity is constructed in day-to-day life. Genetically, Americans are very diverse; still, they've become one nation in a surprisingly short time.

[Robert Vermaat]

I think one can't say that 'The Vlachs in Macedonia' are descendants of 'the'5th legion. As I said elsewhere, there's a nice article by Ross Cowan in the wings about what happened to V Macedonia, so i won't cut the grass before his feet. :wink:

But Vlachs could at one time have seved as soldiers in a unit by that name, until well into Byzantine times I suppose. But it would take a loooong tradition to retain such a memory, and besides that, they can't be 'the' descendants.

[Jona Lendering]

there's a nice article by Ross Cowan in the wings about what happened to V Macedonia, so i won't cut the grass before his feet.

Where can I find it?

[Robert Vermaat]

I said 'in the wings' Jona, probably next issue of AW... :wink:

[Come in Nighthawk]

I think one can't say that 'The Vlachs in Macedonia' are descendants of 'the'5th legion. As I said elsewhere, there's a nice article by Ross Cowan in the wings about what happened to V Macedonia, so i won't cut the grass before his feet. :wink:

But Vlachs could at one time have served as soldiers in a unit by that name, until well into Byzantine times I suppose. But it would take a loooong tradition to retain such a memory, and besides that, they can't be 'the' descendants.

My first impulse, if I were to credit this, was thinking; "gee, mayhap they claim to be some tiny pocket of folks who can trace their descent from a detachment of "V Macedonica"?" -- but oral tradition can be tricky. OtoH, aren't the Albanians considered to be the "survivors, albeit with a DNA-admixture of Slavs and Turks, of the original "Illyrians?" That is, linguistically they derive from that group, however "dilute" their DNA stock is today? Culture and ethnicity (vice the old ideas of "race") CAN be powerful tools to bind a folk together; especially in face of adversity.

[Arahne]

I think that it would be better to observe Vlachs as Balkan mountain region specific community with economy based on cattle breading. I say so because there is a huge population of Vlachs in eastern Serbia/west Romania. Most of them have very strong pagan tradition, and they speak language which is based on Romanian. In fact their hristianization was never completed so there are some of them who believe in Sun as the supreme God. I suppose that they are the remains of the mixture of the pre-slavic tribes Illirs, Dacians, Thracians that were influenced by romanization in some level but never lost some cultural elements that are pre--roman. Tzintzari from macedonia (once they lived in northern greece also) are another also very interesting population (they speek mixture of greek and should I say latin?) which is more urbanized and their economy was based mostly on trade. They are orthodox Christians, but mostly losing their identity(language and culture) during the 19/20th century slavinization.

[hoplite14gr]

But Vlachs could at one time have served as soldiers in a unit by that name, until well into Byzantine times I suppose. But it would take a loooong tradition to retain such a memory, and besides that, they can't be 'the' descendants.

My first impulse, if I were to credit this, was thinking; "gee, mayhap they claim to be some tiny pocket of folks who can trace their descent from a detachment of "V Macedonica"?" -- but oral tradition can be tricky. OtoH, aren't the Albanians considered to be the "survivors, albeit with a DNA-admixture of Slavs and Turks, of the original "Illyrians?" That is, linguistically they derive from that group, however "dilute" their DNA stock is today? Culture and ethnicity (vice the old ideas of "race") CAN be powerful tools to bind a folk together; especially in face of adversity.[/quote]

A parameter that no one like to discuss in the Balkans:
There was no Turkic army!!!! The Ottoman Army´s best units were Serbs Epirotes (Greeks) and Slav infantry. (Rumelia Passa) They were not even forced to convert until 1520. So in your argument Slavs-possibly. Turks not impossible but questionable.

Even "islamised" populations (willfully od forcibly) had rather a cultural change than a biological change.

I rather agree with Robert that Vlachs were most probable Byzantine veterans rather than Romans. But Byzantines referred to themselves as Romans!

Kind regards