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PTSD
#16
Quote:Ross,
Any idea what Latin (or Greek) term got translated as "battle fatigue"?

Hi John,

The term Davies translates as those with battle fatigue is 'xalaston / chalaston' (usually indicating slackness, looseness, something that has become unstrung, etc.).

See line 7 of the complete transliterated Greek text here:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... document=1

Cheers,

R
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#17
Thanks, Ross
Interestingly, that term in French would be "detente," which took on a very different meaning in the 20th century.
Pecunia non olet
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#18
Quote:
john m roberts:2kj8fiso Wrote:Ross,
Any idea what Latin (or Greek) term got translated as "battle fatigue"?

Hi John,

The term Davies translates as those with battle fatigue is 'xalaston / chalaston' (usually indicating slackness, looseness, something that has become unstrung, etc.).
Interesting, Ross. Does Davies give any reason for translating it that way? I don't know any Greek.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#19
I think that the word chalaston want describe the physiological more that psycological, effect of combat. The combat stress reaction (fight or flight)causes great energy draining and weakness of immunitary system. So it is perfectally possible that the soldiers exposed to major danger of combat, can be "hors de combat" for some days or they can be fall sick for little infections.

After the Giaffa battle also Richard I fell ill "for the exhaustion of the battle and the stink of corpses".
"Each historical fact needs to be considered, insofar as possible, no with hindsight and following abstract universal principles, but in the context of own proper age and environment" Aldo A. Settia

a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo




SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
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#20
Couple things to consider.

1. Romans lived in a much more violent society. What shocks us today is much less shocking to them.

2. Roman legionaires were in for much longer than most soldiers are today. So having to deal with the stress of fitting back into normal society was much less common which is also a major source of stress.


Overall I think you would have seen it less and when you did it would be from the survivors of units that were totally crushed in battle and saw all of their comrades die.
Timothy Hanna
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#21
Quote:Interesting, Ross. Does Davies give any reason for translating it that way?

Not that I recall.

My Greek isn't up to much (I gave up after a few terms!), so I consulted a friend who teaches it. As it derives from the verb 'chalao', meaning 'to loosen', 'to relax', he suggested that "those who deserted" or "those who gave up" may be more appropriate.

Cheers,

R
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#22
But chalao in passive form is also "be weakened", probably Davies take from this the traduction battle fatigue.
"Each historical fact needs to be considered, insofar as possible, no with hindsight and following abstract universal principles, but in the context of own proper age and environment" Aldo A. Settia

a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo




SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
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#23
I would think it was quite likely. I bet the few soldiers that survived the Varus disaster weren't too normal after that ordeal. I think any fighting unit that has trained, campaigned and lived together for 25 years would be affected when their life long friends got hacked to pieces, killed by the plague, hit by an arrow, captured and tortured....... this list goes on.

I would guess though that it wasn't as common as in modern times for all the reasons mentioned above.
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#24
Quote:
Sean Manning:yivo3qoo Wrote:Interesting, Ross. Does Davies give any reason for translating it that way?

Not that I recall.

My Greek isn't up to much (I gave up after a few terms!), so I consulted a friend who teaches it. As it derives from the verb 'chalao', meaning 'to loosen', 'to relax', he suggested that "those who deserted" or "those who gave up" may be more appropriate.

Cheers,

R
OK, this skeptic is convinced Wink . The deserter idea is interesting though ...
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#25
I think that deserter idea is strange in the context:

- Strange to think to some soldiers can desert during the fighting; this can happen before or after, but is strange Marcus can link this to battle.

- If I remember correctly Marcus is a iatros, so can be more concerned with the dead and wounded.

- Why use this word in this inusual modality, when in greek exist phugas for deserter. More probably I try to express a concept not present in greek with a precise word.
"Each historical fact needs to be considered, insofar as possible, no with hindsight and following abstract universal principles, but in the context of own proper age and environment" Aldo A. Settia

a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo




SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
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#26
Quote:I think that deserter idea is strange in the context:

- Strange to think to some soldiers can desert during the fighting; this can happen before or after, but is strange Marcus can link this to battle.

-.

Desert during battle?

"Come home with your shield or on it"

As in don't throw your shield away running from the enemy and come slinking home as a cowardly deserter - better you should be carried home on your shield having died or been wounded in battle.

As for deserting during battle I understand it wasn't uncommon during the US Civil War as well as the First World War.
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#27
Quote:"Come home with your shield or on it"

This refer to survive after a lost fighting; this happen frequently to the loser of battle of other greek cities, but they are not take as deserters they return to home. The spartans don' admit the defeat as possibility. The deserter is another concept.


Quote:As for deserting during battle I understand it wasn't uncommon during the US Civil War as well as the First World War.

These are different type of wars, where the armies cover much space, have a great number of men, battles are separated by pause moments, and the confusion and the rumour are enormous. Nothing of comparable of a minor fighting like that of letter.
"Each historical fact needs to be considered, insofar as possible, no with hindsight and following abstract universal principles, but in the context of own proper age and environment" Aldo A. Settia

a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo




SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
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#28
Quote:
Mitra:2e8liqrg Wrote:I think that deserter idea is strange in the context:

- Strange to think to some soldiers can desert during the fighting; this can happen before or after, but is strange Marcus can link this to battle.

-.

Desert during battle?

"Come home with your shield or on it"

As in don't throw your shield away running from the enemy and come slinking home as a cowardly deserter - better you should be carried home on your shield having died or been wounded in battle.

As for deserting during battle I understand it wasn't uncommon during the US Civil War as well as the First World War.


I would say that refers to "either win the battle or come home dead".....that is how I have interpreted it since child hood anyway... Smile

The losing side usually discarded their erquipment in order to run faster...
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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#29
Quote:I think that deserter idea is strange in the context.

I take your points, but I still think the term is rather ambiguous and he is talking about losses in general - dead, wounded, and perhaps those with "battle fatigue" or perhaps those who fled during, or after, what appears to be a defeat. Why can't men desert during battle, especially if they are at the rear of the battle line? Note Caesar BG 2.25.

Cheers,

R
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#30
Quote:who fled during, or after, what appears to be a defeat

Flee in battle and desert are very different; if the battle was a defeat all the soldiers (or a good number of them) survived are theorically fled in order to survive, and if it was a victory they should flee for panic toward a protection point first at all, in 180° respect the enemy; normally they are seen by the officers in rear. If they was condamned to death for fled, is strange anyway the use a word like that, more adapted to describe a diarrhea attack Big Grin

Desert is a conscious act normally made when not surveyed (or think not be seen) at example in march column, during the night, etc..
"Each historical fact needs to be considered, insofar as possible, no with hindsight and following abstract universal principles, but in the context of own proper age and environment" Aldo A. Settia

a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo




SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
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