Swastika on roman army shields/gear

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The symbol was used to an evil purpose, and as has been well noted,

never forget.....

Seems we have similar minds, and it raises my spirits to know there are those amoung us who feel the same! Some times in the past decade or 2 have driven me close to despair.....but as always, where there is an understanding of the past, there is the opportunity to recognise its cycle and the twists it can take in its effort to repeat itself.....
just wish it was as easy to spot my own cycles........ :roll:

[Semisalis Abruna]

If you go to the Romano-German Museum in Cologne, it is on the site of a Roman townhouse. It was discovered during WW2, when they were digging a new air raid shelter near the cathedral. One of the rooms has a mosaic floor covered in individual (as opposed to a pattern of) swastikas - I bet that suprised the diggers!

I've got swastikas on my new tunic - I need all the luck I can get!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Ummmmmmmm! Your sooo goin' a get in trouble!! hock:

Well, good luck to you mate!! :lol:

[M. Demetrius]

To put in a word for the other side, and of course, it's your kit, Nick, do as you think best. But if a swastika, or any other symbol is offensive to a significant plurality of other people, and has changed its meaning to something different over time, then even though authentic historically, it might cause many otherwise needless explanations to be needed, and focus attention on the symbol rather than the overall impression. It's likely that many will go away thinking "Nazi" instead of "Roman".

Sometimes, ideas get caught in the vise of "things I can do" vs. "things I should do." (I don't pretend to be in a position to tell you what to do, though.) Still, everything needs to be weighed, that's all. Odds are, a symbol painted or appliqued on your tunic won't change your luck, in and of itself, will it?

[caiusbeerquitius]

In general I find displaying swastikas in reenectment unnecessary (i.e. dodgy), unless there is a very good reason, e.g. if one wants to make an actual reconstruction of a specific item, like the Hallstatt clothes from the Heuneburg Museum, e.g., and if there is no other option.

Only recently a well-known pan-European Reenactment group got into the spotlight because one of their participants from Poland displayed his belly-tattoo on an event in Germany, reading "Meine Ehre heißt Treue", an illegal sentence in Germany, linked to the SS. Currently there is quite a debate (public and academic) going on about this, in the end the whole Germanic reenactment community took and takes serious damage because of this. This group is also known for unnecessary display of swastikas in all kinds of different forms, apparently even where the originals they reproduced didn´t show any, or where there was room for speculation. IMO the display of swastikas is irresponsible and unnecessary, IF there are enough other possibilities for reconstructions. It normally doesn´t hurt to leave them away, unless... well, unless one doesn´t want to. It´s a kind of personal ability to see responsibilty that comes along with making historic displays in public.

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

Fortunately, Christian, I am an American and I live in America... we still don't have hold-over remnants of the nazi era such as "illegal phrases" or whatever. To be free, one simply IS free, you don't legislate it, you don't schedule it, you don't make rules on "how to BE free." hock:

It all comes down to this: I like swastikas, I think it's a good luck symbol and just because Gefreiter Schickelgrüber used it for what, 23 years, that does not mean it's now forbidden for the rest of us and banned throughout time. I have a friend from India and it really pisses her off that a symbol for her religion is "forbidden."

And no, I will not stop using it on stuff. :twisted: I know, I am sure I'll get arrested in Germany, but hey, I have no plans to go there anytime soon, so am not too worried.
Marsh the Horrible

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Fortunately, Christian, I am an American and I live in America...To be free, one simply IS free, you don't legislate it, you don't schedule it, you don't make rules on "how to BE free."

:lol:

[John M McDermott]

The term we use in the US is "politically correct." The American actor Charlton Heston recommended mass disobedience to these dictums. The choice is yours.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

I think its pretty pointless to avoid swastikas on reenactment gear, if it had otherwise been historically appropriate for a given impression. That doesn't mean one should thoughtless strive for it, but I can hardly imagine and definitly don't know anybody in my acquaintance, who would seriously believe were was a Nazi-connection to reenactment gear, that is obviously 2000 years "out of fashion" . ... AFAIK for educational reason its use is allowed - even here. I can't even understand the argument, that people would feel bad, just for seeing it. As if nobody here would know what a swastika looks like. Every year hundreds of war movies and documentaries show you.
It would farther be a good opportunity to claim back a symbol and - more important - its power from people who misused it. If one day people will have forgotten what's happened, the cause is surely not some reenactors who decided to display swastika.

[John M McDermott]

Ira Koenig makes a spatha chafe with a Star of David on it. Interestingly, the Star of David was not identified as "officially" Jewish until the 15th century, as the swatstika was not "officially" anti-Jewish till the 20th.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I think its pretty pointless to avoid swastikas on reenactment gear, if it had otherwise been historically appropriate for a given impression. That doesn't mean one should thoughtless strive for it, but I can hardly imagine and definitly don't know anybody in my acquaintance, who would seriously believe were was a Nazi-connection to reenactment gear, that is obviously 2000 years "out of fashion" . ... AFAIK for educational reason its use is allowed - even here. I can't even understand the argument, that people would feel bad, just for seeing it. As if nobody here would know what a swastika looks like. Every year hundreds of war movies and documentaries show you.
It would farther be a good opportunity to claim back a symbol and - more important - its power from people who misused it. If one day people will have forgotten what's happened, the cause is surely not some reenactors who decided to display swastika.

I am of the exact same mind! Well said!

[Marcus Julius]

IF we wanted to ban any and all symbols from reenactment that are offensive because of the nazi's, we would have to ban more than just the swaztika (aka Hakenkreuz, prior to that dubbed a Greek Cross). Hitler was trying to recreate the Roman Empire completely, and steal all of Rome's former glory for the Nazi (short for national socialist) party. Watch some of the old films and look at the way the Nazi banners were hung. Can you say Vexilla? How about the "hail Caesar" style palm forward salute? Reichs Eagle disturbingly similar to our periods Eagle standards? All the way down to it being named the Third Reich (or third Empire). History warning here: the region of Germany was called the Holy Roman Empire for some time, which would have been the second.
It has even been argued that the propoganda machines of nationalism are what produced some of our modern (mis?)conceptions of the origin of the Goths.

Just because the hooked cross is a simpler geometric design that was easier to paint on the wings of aircraft and the sides of tanks doesn't make it any more or less stolen from the true Empire than all of these other symbols.

Now, having said that, I am not about to plaster one on every piece of my gear, just to prove a point. However, if I were to produce a piece that is a reproduction of something in period that originally had that symbol on it, you better believe I am going to put that symbol on it. Should anyone have the sense to challenge me on it, I would be more than happy to explain to them why it is displayed. For those that don't confront, and pretend to be offended, I can only pray that they overcome the ignorance on their own.

[Semisalis Abruna]

Just got back from the first event wearing my swastika tunic.

When talking about clothing, the second question was 'Why are you wearing swastikas?' (The first was 'aren't you hot in that?' - wearing a thick wool tunic & fur pannonian cap with temperatures in the sun at 25C+ - and thats in WALES!!!)

Talking to random British public, many new it was a good luck sign for the Hindus (Multi-cultural education?) but didn't know it was the same for the Romans & some asked if I was a German mercenary serving in the Roman army. I asked a few if it offended them, none said it die, but most actually said it was good to see it being re-instated as a good luck symbol - that surprised me. The local Vicar even commented it was right for a Late Roman as it was probably a sun wheel symbol for Sol Invictus worshippers.

There seems to be well educated public in South Wales

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

There you go!

[caiusbeerquitius]

Fortunately, Christian, I am an American and I live in America... we still don't have hold-over remnants of the nazi era such as "illegal phrases" or whatever. To be free, one simply IS free, you don't legislate it, you don't schedule it, you don't make rules on "how to BE free."

It all comes down to this: I like swastikas, I think it's a good luck symbol and just because Gefreiter Schickelgrüber used it for what, 23 years, that does not mean it's now forbidden for the rest of us and banned throughout time. I have a friend from India and it really pisses her off that a symbol for her religion is "forbidden."

And no, I will not stop using it on stuff. I know, I am sure I'll get arrested in Germany, but hey, I have no plans to go there anytime soon, so am not too worried.

Marsh, you missed my point. My personal opinion is in the first sentence of my posting, the rest was just a report, with an own thought added at the end. The problem about the incident I told about is, that this group was payed for it´s performance by public institutions, which belong to the state. This in turn gives people who wish to the possibilty to sue the state / resp. bring such an incident to the press, and then you just have to wait for the next headlines referring to Nazi Germans and Nazi Germany etc.
As I said, if one makes a reconstruction of a certain object, I don´t see a problem with it. I see a problem in covering your gear in swastikas without having evidence for it. But that still wouldn´t be completely illegal over here. It is illegal, however, to display Nazi emblema in public.
But, as it is, I generally have a problem with gear displayed in public that is not based on artifacts. :wink:
Here´s the legal situation: www.berlin.de/imperia/md/content/seninn/verfassungsschutz/stand2005/info_symbole_5._aufl.pdf

Apart from all that: Being free would be in my definition to be able to go anywhere anytime. In that sense noone is really free. Less pathetic , but more true, IMO. Ah, and being free also requires using one´s freeness, so if you restrict yourself from coming over, you´re not free anymore, right? I mean, e.g. if you sit in the same spot your whole life claiming how free you are, are you really free? I`d say not, you´re just someone talking about freedom and living an illusion of being free.
And then we quickly come to Kant, and wonder how free to be is actually good? Shouldn´t we from time to time be less free, just to give others the same space of freedom as oneself has? A bit of restriction for the better of the community? I´d say yes. So the community then rules, as every part of the community constitutes the community. And if the community then decides to forbid this or that, there must be a reason behind it. And behind the reason stands the freedom of deciding what is good or not. In that sense, those laws are practiced freedom, aren´t they? Or were they in the end partially set up by the alliance forces? Hmmmm.

In Georgia, I remember vividly, it is illegal to buy alcohol on sundays, which I personally find a much more freedom-restricting law than the German laws about Nazi emblema <=This is half a joke, just in case.
And please don´t infer too many relations to modern politics or cultural transatlantic differences in what I wrote, rather see it as thoughts about what stands behind this discussion. At least that´s what I mean, but it might be misunderstood.