Ptolemaic armies vs. Roman Legions (circa 50 b.C.)

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete,

By the time of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra, how would Egyptian soldiers have appeared ? Would they all have looked virtually identical to Roman legionaries ? My guess would be that at least some units were outfitted and trained as legionaries but I'd like to hear from others.

If I'm right, then would Caesar's war with Ptolemy 'XIII' have resembled a Roman civil war given that both sides had nearly identical equipment ?

I've read that Ptolemy VI Philometer (2nd century b.C.) introduced Roman ranks into his armies such as 'centurion'. Here is a fresco of a Ptolomaic soldier from Anatolia dating to about 145 b.C.. He is outfitted with chainmail, a bronze helmet, and a Romano-celtic scutum. But how far was this reorganization taken ?

King Antiochus IV of Syria in 166 b.C. is said to have held a military parade at Daphnae which featured a 'legion' of 5,000 recruits in Roman equipment. But, again, how extensive were reforms like these in the Hellenistic kingdoms ?

~Theo

[PMBardunias]

Nick Secunda has addressed this extensively: "Hellenistic Infantry Reform in the 160'S Bc"

He also has two smaller books published by Montvert that are osprey-like treatments of the subject.

[Theodosius the Great]

Hey, thanks for that !

I wonder how far he takes the history. Hopefully he mentions encounters between the legions and the reformed hellenistic infantry.

The cover even has the fresco I linked to in my first post

(Note to self : I bet I would've gotten a quicker response if I had opened this thread in the Greek section :lol: )

~Theo

[Komanos]

Caesar's narrative of the Alexandrian war gives little indication of the armament of the soldiers involved. Its certainly possible that the Ptolemies still maintained a phalanx, though the elite soldiers armed rather like legionaries and the light soldiers armed mainly as thureophoroi and organized mainly like the legions would have constituted most of the army.

[hoplite14gr]

Dynastic struggle had weakend the State and had affected the army.

At Ceacars time probably a combination of Gauls, Cretan archers and thyreophoroi peltasts of various quality an sdisipline would be the norm.
We may include african troops

Kind regards

[S SEVERUS]

Could it be there were jewish soldiers or mercenaries in the Egyptian army? There lived a lot of Jews in Alexandria.

[Komanos]

There definitely were. There were large numbers of Jews, Arabs, and Anatolians in the Ptolemaic army. Most of the Jews in the actual army would have been serving in units with men of other ethnicities. In the conscriptions for the Alexandrian War, it wouldn't surprise me at all if units were raised from the quarters and smaller neighborhoods, so Jews probably fought as units together in that particular instance.

[Theodosius the Great]

Yes, I've read how the ethnic Greek component of the Ptolemaic armies dwindled so much that mercenaries had to be imported in massive numbers. Jewish refugees fleeing from either the Seleucid or Maccabees were admitted into Egypt where many joined the army. Foreign mercenaries were vital in suppressing native revolts against the Greek Pharaohs who were viewed as "false gods." It's amazing how Upper Egypt was lost to rebel hands for so many years.

Despite the Jews' proven loyalties and usefulness as fighters they were never given nor did they seek Greek citizenship. They enjoyed a higher status above the native Egyptians but ranked below the Greeks as a matter of choice. I suppose rejecting citizenship was a way to protect themselves from total assimilation or absorption. But I've read estimates that the Jewish component of the army may have been as high as 20 percent at one time.

~Theo

P.S.

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback to my original question.

[PMBardunias]

I cannot recall where I read it now, but one of the ancient authors tells the story of a Jewish mercenary in Ptolomaic service as an archer. (if I recall correctly) The story tells of a bunch of mercenaries who take the flight of a specific bird as a bad omen. The Jew, not believing in bird omens, shoots the bird and kills it, thus ending the omen.

Does anyone know of this tale and the details?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Considering there were former Centurions acting as (Mercenary) advisors? to Ptolomy who were involved in the death of Pompey, perhaps the idea of some formed and trained as Roman legions is not a total impossibility.

[praetor0708]

The Egyptian army was revamped with Greek equipment by General Ptolemy including the phalanx which proved insurmountable in ancient battles. The traditional armor, headdresses, and kilts of the New Kingdom era as well as the khopesh swords were long gone by the time of Antony and Cleopatra. So Egyptian troops would have been similarly equipped to the Romans. The Egyptian army itself was fractured as some generals remained loyal to Ptolemy while others backed Cleopatra. They were supposed to rule as co-regents but Cleopatra nor Ptolemy was willing to share power. Ptolemy's order to kill Pompeii Magnus probably sealed his fate. This shows the level at which he misunderstood the Roman mentality. Caesar loved Pompeii even though they were bitter rivals. To Caesar such love and respect meant that only he should kill Pompeii and not foreigners who intruded in his plans. This is the same reason why the senators personally murdered Caesar instead of paying some assassin to do it. Love and respect, but political animosity. This played well for Cleopatra who would become the most powerful woman in the world.


Doug "Suetonius Attius Hispanicus"

[BigRedBat]

As Gaius Julius Caesar suggests above, it is likely that there may have been some Roman-equipped troops at the siege of Alexandria; Romans left by Gabinius in 54BC who may presumably have formed the core of larger units. I suspect that some or all of the Centurions may have come from this force.

I personally believe that 48/47BC is a bit late for pikemen and imagine that by that time, the bulk of the Egyptian forces would have been Thureophoroi.

Regards

[Robert Vermaat]

praetor, remember your signature.

[Theodosius the Great]

Going back to the fresco :

Since the solder is equipped in the Roman style it could serve as evidence for Romans wearing red tunics during the Republic. I'm a little surprised Graham Sumner didn't cite the fresco in his Osprey book. OTOH, the solder could simply be following Macedonian practice of wearing red tunics which dates back at least to the time of Alexander, IIRC. Just a thought...

~Theo

[Komanos]

Red tunics are rather common on depictions of Ptolemaic soldiers (though by no means the exclusive color). I'd say the red comes from Ptolemaic/Hellenic practice rather than slavishly following Roman example.