Vexilla --> a few requests

[Neuraleanus]

Rogationes paucae:
1. Can someone post either a picture or a link to a picture of the famous vexillum from Egypt that is now located at the Hermitage, the one of Victory standing on the globe?

2. I read that a second vexillum had been found. Picture?

3. What is the evidence for the use of signs of the zodiac on vexilla? Or is this merely a reenactorism, a case of reenactors copying other reenactors without asking questions? I know that signs of the zodiac, such as the capricorn, were mascots of certain legions.

4. I remember seeing a Nova show sequence where an iron vexillum frame had been recovered from a site in [Turkey?]. Picture?

5. Any suggested references?

[Neuraleanus]

Ok, no replies meaning that all of those zodiac symbols that reenactors have been putting on vexilla is another reenactorism?

[Matt Lukes]

The only depictions I've ever found are either blank, have only the 'Lambda' symbols in the corners, and only a single one has any text and that's all that's there, and it reads VEXILLVS LEGIIAVG.

[Neuraleanus]

Well I've found a few more, such as Victory standing on a globe (Egypt) and an eagle (Dura Europos), but no zodiac signs. This is the current top candidate for the legio XXX cohort III vexillum:



It's adapted from the Legio II AVG vexillum.

[Magnus]

Lee, I still have my old one which is almost IDENTICAL to that one you're planning on. Do you want it? Here's a picture of it, but I can take another one if you want. The dimensions are almost the same as listed on Matt Amt's page...so it's not the half meter you're after. You may want to go smaller, I think the one with the image of Victory on it is closer in size to Mr. Amt's.

http://www.geocities.com/legioxxxcoh1/L ... ampSat.jpg

and on the main page

http://www.geocities.com/legioxxxcoh1/

It's made from red silk noile, using regular acrylic fabric paints, with a wool blend fringe.

[Peroni]

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 2472#72472

[Neuraleanus]

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.p...2472#72472

Gratias ago tibi!

The dimensions are almost the same as listed on Matt Amt's page...so it's not the half meter you're after. You may want to go smaller, I think the one with the image of Victory on it is closer in size to Mr. Amt's.

I think that Matt Amt is wrong on that point. I have read that both vexilla found in Egypt were closer to 50cm by 50cm. I will double check my references tonight. And what is the evidence for the use of silk? I was thinking that linen would be appropriate.

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

I fully agree that linen is a better option than silk! But a day or two before one of our first major events, long ago, I had a piece of silk about that size and decided to go for it. Honestly don't remember much about known or hypothetical dimensions, but if the surviving one from Egypt is 20" square, that sounds like good evidence! Mine tends to look like a good match for the size of those shown on Trajan's Column, but we all know that's not the best of arguments! I probably would have made mine a little bigger than it is, but that's how big the piece of cloth was. Not bad for a stopgap, but that was 15 years ago and we can all aim a little higher now.

Valete,

Matthew

[Magnus]

Hey Lee,

Well, Matt said he used silk for his, so that's what I used for mine lol. Of course, that was also like 6 years ago...so things change.

I used linen on my new one, though the dimensions are a bit under 20".

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Rogationes paucae:
1. Can someone post either a picture or a link to a picture of the famous vexillum from Egypt that is now located at the Hermitage, the one of Victory standing on the globe?

Just FYI, the vexillum was in the Hermitage only in 1909-1911. It has been purchased in Egypt by V.S. Golenischev, and with the rest of his vast collection was transferred to the Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts in Moscow. But the Museum opened only in 1912, and so the vexillum was temporarily hosted in the Hermitage until then.

[Neuraleanus]

Just FYI, the vexillum never was in the Hermitage. It has been purchased in Egypt by V.S. Golenischev, and with the rest of his vast collection was transfered to the Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts in Moscow in 1909-1911.

I stand corrected. The Hermitage citation came from Connolly's book, "Greece and Rome at War".

if the surviving one from Egypt is 20" square, that sounds like good evidence!

This I quote from Feugere, "Weapons of the Romans":
Referring to the first vexillum from Egypt, "It is roughly square, 47cm high by 50cm wide, and still has the transverse piece of wood in a pocket at its top"

[Magnus]

Do we actually know that was a vexillum? Especially in terms of unit identification? That could have been a triumphal banner of some kind.

[Peroni]

Apart from the 'Victory' flag, there was another similar sized (47cm x 50cm) vexillum found in Egypt in the late 1980's by English archaeologists, made of a much coarser material.

Fugère describes it being " much less elaborately decorated, with a simple cruciform motif based on a geometrical pattern or floral design"
(Michel Fugère - 'Weapons of the Romans' - Tempus publishing ltd. ISBN 0-7524-2506-4

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Just FYI, the vexillum never was in the Hermitage. It has been purchased in Egypt by V.S. Golenischev, and with the rest of his vast collection was transfered to the Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts in Moscow in 1909-1911.

I stand corrected. The Hermitage citation came from Connolly's book, "Greece and Rome at War"."

Yes, Connolly, probably following an error in a prior secondary source, makes this mistake.

[Andrew Brozyna]

As for zodiac symbols on vexilla, I don't think there is any representation of such. They did appear on sculptures of shields, coins featuring military scenes, sculptures of signa, markers along the Antonine Wall, etc. So, I don't think it would be breaking the rules for a reenactor to place a zodiac symbol on a vexillum. However, I have only ever seen representations of scorpio (presumably restricted to the Preatorians) and Capricorn (for Augustan units). Llibra, virgo, cancer, etc. should probably be avoided.

I have a little article on vexilla on my site:
http://www.redrampant.com/roma/vexillum.html

I'll have to update the info on the location of the Hermitage Museum!