Scutum question for reenactors

[LegioIIavg]

Hi everyone. Other than a brief intro this is my first post so be gentle . I remember reading peter connolly's rome & greece at war ( library copy ) in which he mention's a scutum recreation weighing around 10kg. He went on to say that he thought it would have been to heavy to actually carry continuously and he thought that soldiers may have grounded the shield ( after initial clash of lines ) and fought from behind it.

Do I have this right ? and if so what do the reenactors think about this proposition ?. Does it fit in with roman tactics of that period ?.

Thanks for your help.

[Matthew Amt]

Ave!

Yeah, I remember him saying that, but I don't think I agree. Even if his estimated weight is accurate, we really shouldn't make statements that a particular item is too heavy, too light, too thick, too thin, etc. Bottom line, what they had back then worked for them.

Even if your shield is "too heavy to hold continuously", you'll have plenty of opportunity to rest in battle with the shield grounded. A lot of time was probably sent with the lines a few yards apart, hurling insults and missles. But when actually fighting in close combat, ALL the evidence indicates that the whole point of battle was to push the enemy backwards off the battlefield. Plus, even with a shield the size of a Republican scutum, you still need to move it some. Heck, it was designed to shove in peoples' faces! Can't do that if it's resting on the ground. Don't worry, adrenaline will help!

Vale,

Matthew

[LegioIIavg]

Thanks for your reply. If I remember rightly this particular sheild was distinct from later sheilds as he mentions plenty of evidence for sheilds that could be effectively weilded. I was just having trouble picturing fighting from behind a stationary (grounded ) scutum given my understanding of the classic legionary fighting technique.

[PhilusEstilius]

The Roman Scutum developed over time as did also the battle tactics, there has been much study made however no one can yet say just when the top and bottom were loped off the Republican types. I have always been of the opinion that the reason this happened was so that the shield could be stood on the ground, not because it was heavy but to fall in line with the battle tactic of throwing the Pilum.....If anyone has ever thrown a Pilum while holding a scutum in their left hand, they must surely be aware of just how stupid this is from the balance point of view....In order to get all the soldiers to throw their Pilum at the same time under the noise and confusion of battle, the drill was to stand their shields on the ground with each man two Meters apart and in staggered ranks. They all look to the right where they can watch their Centurian, then when he throws with the enemy at 30yrds every soldier throws his pilum at the same time with the enemy at around 20yrds. This way with the staggered rank system a Maniple or two century block can give the devastation blow with 160 Pilum going into the enemy exactly at the same time. Then the shield is picked up the sword is then drawn, the staggered rank stepping forward fill the two meter gap and then with shields locked action begins. The added advantage of this is you have just divested the front rank of the enemy of their shields, and with the pressure coming from behind thay are driven onto your wall that cuts.

[Matthew Amt]

Ave!

Set down your shield when the enemy is that close and presumably charging?? I doubt it. You'd be pincushioned by any incoming missiles--which tend to have longer ranges than the comparatively heavy pilum. I've never seen reenactors have any problem throwing pila while holding shields, even with a second pilum held behind the scutum. There's no need for the whole line to stop and lose their momentum. A pilum volley doesn't have to be precisely timed or even done on command, really--the veterans would know when to throw, and the less experienced troops could follow their lead.

Anyway, setting down a shield and expecting it to stay upright might work on a smooth lawn and a calm day, but what if the ground is uneven or sloped? And any good breeze will knock over all the shields, causing the entire enemy force to fall down laughing.

It seems more likely to me that the scutum was shortened about the time that troops were made to carry all their gear on the march. If the maximum height is the distance from your shoulder to knee, you can sling it on your back without it bumping your legs or interfering with your pack. Soldiers do a LOT more marching than fighting, after all, so that probably had a lot more influence on equipment than just battle mechanics.

Vale,

Matthew

[Marcus Julius]

I agree Matt, just look at modern day soldiers and policemen's ever shrinking firearm. They keep getting smaller and lighter because they carry them more than using them.

Anyway, You might be surprised how quickly you get used to the weight. I remember in my military days, carrying a 23 pound machine gun, while the rest of the squad was running around with their seven pound rifles. It didn't take long for me to build up to the gun, just as a legionaire recruit would have built up to the shield. It's amazing how much you can carry and endure once you start to realize that your life could depend on it.

On a side note, There are a few here who are making very accurate reconstructions. I think if you get a hold of Hibernicus, Peroni, Rusty or others whose names escape me at the moment, they can give you a more accurate weight estimate.

[Magnus]

Gotta agree with Matt on this one. Here's two pictures of me throwing a javelin at Roman Days in 2005. I would have won for longest distance (and i'm not a throwing expert!) but was beaten by someone wearing no armour and shieldless (I won't mention any names cough Greg Fabic cough). He only threw it a few more feet than me. 8)

Anyway, when it's time to release, the scutum for me served as a great counter balance.

Brian, I agree with your post, except for the part about making accurate reconstructions for scuta. The weight is still there. Just ask II AVG here in the US and Canada. They're using 16 - 14 gauge bosses, brass rims and 3 layers of 1/8" ply wood. In terms of mass and appearance they're spot on with known examples. Even my 2-ply scutum is around 15 lbs at least.

Oh and LegioIIAVG please add your real name to your signature...forum rule!