Hoplites of the Archaic Age

[hoplite14gr]

Prototype in National Museum Athens
http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~greekart/sculptur/geomet_e.html

Warrior from Dodona that probably supports Paul B theory on beotian shield grip.
http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/thucydide ... /sixty.htm


Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Warrior from Dodona that probably supports Paul B theory on beotian shield grip.

Do you know how his arm is positioned behind that shield? For some reason I seem to think it was straight out, along the long axis. The mix of grip types for the later Boetian is a big reason thatI think they are just art.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Nah...I don't think this is likely. Most probably there was a porpax and an antilabe. After all,this same position of the arm is very common with the archive shield,too. I always thought it was very uncomfortable to hold the shield in that angle with straight arm,but it's very frequent.
However,Paul B, I haven't seen yet any boeotian shield being held with the arm bent in the small diameter. Why do you think there are two ways of placing the porpax? I see only the types already posted and a central grip that appears only in geometric art.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

However,Paul B, I haven't seen yet any boeotian shield being held with the arm bent in the small diameter. Why do you think there are two ways of placing the porpax? I see only the types already posted and a central grip that appears only in geometric art.

I think you guys are misunderstanding me. I think the later boetian shield never existed and is a creation of artists who are familiar with the older geometric central grip shield's shape, but are painting them with "modern" double grips.

There are many vase images where the artist paints the double-grip going along the long axis. These are quite similar to how pelta grips are painted sometimes.

There are also images, like those I linked to by Exekias, where the artist clearly believes that the boetian shield is held long axis up and down, as the older single grip Dipylon in fact was. I infer this from the shield blazons in Exekias' vases since they would be facing sideways if a double-grip boetian were ever held in a battle ready pose. I'm sure I have actually seen them drawn this way as well, but I'm not sure I can find the images.

I think that last statue is not a single central grip as you redrew is, but a double grip along the long axis. This would leave the man with his arm extended straight out in the statue, an unlikely battle position for any length of time, and were he to bend his arm up in the familiar aspis hold, his blazon would be sideways. This was an anachronistic shield type whose grip was misinterpreted by the sculptor.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ok,that last vase has a strange grip in the place of the porpax. Just two straps. However,the most interesting detail on it is that there is a telamon passed over his shoulder :!:
Khaire
Giannis

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

AND...it looks like one guy has a squirrel sitting on his head :wink:

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

also a good picture of the porpax and grip of the Boetian shield.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This dog is rare today even in Greece. Such dogs exist today in Crete as a local cretan race. They're not very big,but elegant dogs.
Khaire
Giannis

[Matthew Amt]

Khairete!

I shoulda kept up with this thread! Couple of minor points.

I do not think the Dipylon is descended from the Mycenaean Figure-8 shield, but rather from the Hittite style which it more closely resembles. The Hittite shield is not as extreme in shape, but it has convex curved top and bottom with concave curved sides. Note that with both the Dipylon and the Hittite shields, there is no way to tell top from bottom by their shape, but the top of a Figure-8 is smaller than the bottom. The Dipylon and Hittite shapes also have distinct angles where the side cut-outs meet the top and bottom edges, whereas the Figure-8 is all continuous curves.

Second, one of my pet subjects, the usual dates given for the Trojan War and Bronze Age are messed up! You have to chop 200 to 400 years off them, eliminating most or all of the so-called "Dark Ages". That makes a much more realistic transition from Mycenaean to Geometric (the pottery for which overlaps in any stratified finds). It's true that the Figure-8 shield and boar tusk helmet shown in that nifty painting that Gioi posted seem to be pretty much obsolete by the Trojan War, but the Kegelhelm and Dipylon may be more or less correct. (Cool artwork, though!) Blame it all on the Egyptian King List.

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/chronology.html

The ancient Greek "traditional" date of 1184 for the Trojan War is apparently based on a king list or geneology that uses a generation of 40 years! So that needs to be chopped considerably as well, making it line up neatly with the revised lower dates.

Most of you have heard me froth about this before! Sorry about that...

Matthew

[PMBardunias]

This dog is rare today even in Greece. Such dogs exist today in Crete as a local cretan race. They're not very big,but elegant dogs.

I own a Basenji, which is a little dog very much like this from Africa. There are a number of dog breeds in the mediterranean that are very ancient and part of this group. For eample the Ibizan hound, the Cirneco dell'Etna, the Pharoah hound, and perhaps the Canaan dog. Usually they are referred to as Pariah dogs, but that is not strictly accurate since a true pariah is a dog breeding wildly- like the Australian dingo which also looks simmilar in many ways. These dogs are true breeds.

My breed, the basenji, can do anything you'd want a dog to do. Hunt by sight and smell, race, retrieve, etc. They were not so specialized as the more recent breeds. The famous Laconian hound would have looked just like the Cretan hound.

[Dan Howard]

Yeah it does look a lot like a Dingo, or Asian Wolf. Unfortunately there are no pure breds left on the Australian continent but apparently there are a few on Fraser Island.

FWIW I agree with Matt both about the Dipylon not being related to the Figure-8 and the chronology.

[Chris B]

So I tryed to see Paul's & Stefane's point

Sorry to come in so late in this post. I think your diagram might be backwards from everything I have seen and in my experience playing with it. My own Boeotian is only comfortable with the porpax placed center and the grip for the hand on the furthest edge of the shield which would place the elbow in the center of the shield. Then it would resemble many of the grips I have seen on vases you all posted when I made the shield. Holding it away from the body like in the sculptures shown in previous posts isn't really uncomfortable.

You have to rotate the arm upward when using it in front of the body though. Kind of like a martial arts lead hand block across the face. It is really quite comfortable and feels VERY solid this way. Because of the added oblong length of the shield, it still covers to knees held either way.

To the left side, the arm is extended downward along the body when carrying it and the top edge of the rim sits very comfortably on the shoulder just like an aspis. When you rotate it 180% on its axis to bring it to the front of the body, it still covers the same portion of the body because your fist is at your face, but the space not occupied by a portion of your arm rotates 180 degree downward to cover your legs anyways. Then you sort of get a very solid couched position behind it.

I am in no way a historical knowledge equal to any of you, but I have heavily trained in various martial arts and currently still train with a professional UFC veteran for MMA. I feel very solid using the shield this way. I think it could resist considerable force with it being braced from behind like this. It is very quick to move the shield in any direction.

Also, the way your showing it here would hit the ground if you relaxed your arm and let it hand freely. Also think about this. If your fist is at the center, you would not have much control over the edge without an arm under it. Your hand is the fulcrum point for the lever so to speak. Any blow to the opposite side would be hard to defend and the shield would be very heavy. With the grip I have described, the full arm supports the shield from behind it.

I was asked a while back to post pictures for this so I will do one better. As soon as I get home in about 2 hours, I will upload a very short video of me with the shield showing all this to make my case. I think it will become pretty obvious then. I know it did as soon as I picked the shield up for the first time.

[Chris B]

I'll get it up shortly so check back. You know, I wasn't sure I liked it when I first made it, but with a bronze facing, I really think it would be my favorite shield I have ever handled. It is quite agile and I think I could do some serious damage with it quickly using it offensively too. The center of gravity on it makes it move quickly.

Like I have said repeatedly, I am the warrior, not the philosopher. My interest in this stuff is it's military function throughout history more than the history itself. That's why I trust you guys to fill in the blanks. :lol:

The picture just loaded. The shield on the left is being held the same way and the one on the right doesn't even look like a Boeotian to me. Just my two cents.

[Chris B]

Okay. Here is the link. I am sure it isn't showing anything you veterans don't know, but hopefully it helps paint the picture better. Excuse my Texas accent! :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeKuy36OG_g

[Paullus Scipio]

Great use of technology/YouTube to demonstrate your point, Chris....well done and a 'laus' !!

However, I can't recall seeing an ancient depiction that shows the shield in use with that upward position, which kind of militates against your hypothesis..... which btw would also seem practical for a conventional Aspis.....except, again, not shown in ancient deoictions AFIK....

In fact, on the vase illustrations, we see many different ways of holding and grips for the 'Boeotian', which implies to me that the artists were drawing something they did not know, and were using their imaginations.....