Hoplites of the Archaic Age

[PMBardunias]

Here is an image from a proto-corinthian aryballos from Lechaion showing the boetian shield in a more realistic manner, scalloped laterally, with a single center grip (apparently).

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This is Excellent! Laudes! This is certainly from a time the dipylon was still used! Note that they're both holding an extra spear or javelin. This could also be realistic given that in the Chigi vase the hoplites are all holding two spears,one shorter than the other.
In this aryballos the construction is also indicated,though those dotts could mean anything. The size and depth are also characteristic.
This doesn't mean that the dipylon didn't have later stages of evolution...with a double grip.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Its interesting that the inner face of the aspis, with porpax and antilabe, seems to dominate the image. His left arm is so exaggerated that its out of proportion. I wonder if there was meaning in this- if the fact that he has such a grip labels him as something different than the other men.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I noticed that,too. Forgot to mention it. I wonder if it happened in purpose or just because it was something extraordinary for the artist,too

[Paullus Scipio]

Apologies Duncan......some confusion creeping in here....when I see the words 'cutout' or 'Boeotian' shield, I think of the type depicted on Classical vases, and mentally associate that with classical times. In my mind 'Di-pylon' or 'figure eight' describes the actual Mycenaen shields - perhaps we should agree some definitions.
The title should have told me that was not the case here.....and I would entirely agree that in warfare of what we may call 'Homeric' times ( whatever those are!) he describes a much 'looser' style of warfare involving missile warfare etc in which a shield slung behind, and which does not limit mobility would be very useful...as you say,Duncan, more 'peltast' than 'Hoplite'. Those fortunate enough to have seen film-clips of New Guinea Highland tribesmen fighting battles will have a good idea of how this semi-ritualised form of warfare may have looked. ( digression: they still fight that way, only now with AK47's and M-16's! hock: )
Giannis wrote

This implies the Boeotians were using caps of dog skin. Would they enter the battle with leather caps?

....Giannis, you may recall that it used to be thought that 'piloi' referred only to 'dogskin caps', and that the Spartans on Sphacteria were supposedly wearing these, especially since they failed to keep out arrows.....but as our knowledge grew it became apparent that 'pilos' could mean a metal helmet too....Demosthenes is speaking quite 'late', at a time when what we call 'Boeotian' helmets were quite common. I'd suggest he is probably describing what we think of as 'proto-Boeotian ' metal helmets.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Well.probaly,as this woulkd make more sence. As for "pilos",I thought it comes from "pilima" which means felt. "kunas" has to do with the ancient word for dog, and I thought that dog skin caps were used by every kind of workers and slaves. The shape of the boeotian helmet(the one so popular in later macedonian cavalry" seems to have evolved from a felt(or was it dog skin after all) cap,that produced the characteristic shape of this helmet by the two straps,one for the chin and one for the back part of the head.
But Paul M, do you imply that the word kunas boiotikas refers to something like the famous pilos cap?
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

No, I am suggesting that just as there was a metal helmet which in shape resembled the 'pilos' cap (and IIRC these could be of felt or dogskin), and caps of that sort were seen as typically peloponnesian; that there also existed a helmet derived from a typical 'Boeotian' cap ( also possibly made of dogskin and/or felt), and that this became what we now call a 'Boeotian' helmet (recall also that there was a metal helmet version of the 'petassos' sun-hat as well )....and that although called by the name of the hat,like 'pilos' in the case of Spartan Hoplite's helmets, what Demosthenes is referring to is actually a metal helmet derived from Boeotian dogskin caps.

[Duncan Head]

Apologies Duncan......some confusion creeping in here....when I see the words 'cutout' or 'Boeotian' shield, I think of the type depicted on Classical vases, and mentally associate that with classical times. In my mind 'Di-pylon' or 'figure eight' describes the actual Mycenaen shields - perhaps we should agree some definitions.

I thought it was absolutely standard terminology that "dipylon" refers to the shields shown in Geometric art, like the one in the image Paul Bardunias posted. They're different from the Mycenaean type in that they have actual cutouts - "violin" shape in outline rather than the "figure-8" shape of the original Mycenaean shield - and different to the Boiotian in that the diplyon tends to be larger and doesn't have the hoplite-style grip.

[PMBardunias]

I thought it was absolutely standard terminology that "dipylon" refers to the shields shown in Geometric art, like the one in the image Paul Bardunias posted.

I'm not sure there is a "standard" terminology. Snodgrass has that shield I posted labelled as "Boetian." The difference seems to be more temporal than physical. That said, the fact that the later "boetian" is often shown with the double-grip, probably unrealistic in a shield of this elongate form, may indicate that it is fiction.

[hoplite14gr]

Kynei initialy was the dog leather cap but the word later could mean any helmet. (i.e. KORINTHIAKI KYNEI)
Shields with scalops were known to Hittites and Medians. They also appear in many warrior statuetes from Dodona.
I cannot be convinced that it was only artistic style.
Most of them were probably organic so they were not preserved.
May metal perimeter fragment in Olympia nad the War museum could have been from any shield.

Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

Duncan wrote:

I thought it was absolutely standard terminology that "dipylon" refers to the shields shown in Geometric art, like the one in the image Paul Bardunias posted. They're different from the Mycenaean type in that they have actual cutouts - "violin" shape in outline rather than the "figure-8" shape of the original Mycenaean shield - and different to the Boiotian in that the diplyon tends to be larger and doesn't have the hoplite-style grip.

...and....
Paul B. wrote:

I'm not sure there is a "standard" terminology. Snodgrass has that shield I posted labelled as "Boetian."

...see what I mean? :? ...and I don't suppose I'm the only one confused...
hence the need for..
Paul M. wrote:

perhaps we should agree some definitions.

[PMBardunias]

In terms of setting standards, this is the Dipylon as seen on geometric vases.

http://faculty.evansville.edu/rl29/art1 ... ipylon.jpg

This was most likely held in a single grip like that "boetian" above. Hittite shields are not dissimilar and held in a single grip.

The later "boetian" which most of us are thinking of, and which surely is simply art in the later period, shows the double grip.
You can see from the image below that the double grip in the direction of the long axis of the shield is a handicap. The area of coverage is rather small, and half the shield sticks out to the left like a wing when the shield is brought to the ready position familiar from the aspis.

Many later examples of this from art are almost exactly like an aspis, but with the rim cut and shallow scallops. If you were to cut an aspis like this you would weaken it considerably- there would need to be a compelling reason to do so. By the way, you'll see that what Connolly thinks are "stretchers" and evidence for their being a real type can simply be a representation of the familiar stylized rope-truss we see all the time is aspis- keeping the shield from expanding along the long axis, not collapsing inward from the ends. Even in the shield below, which I do not believe existed, the artist understands the concept.

[PMBardunias]

Here is another Boetian on an Etruscan chariot, very stylized and obviously from the blazon meant to be held up and down along the long axis. Around the side there is a fellow, Achilles probably, holding this shield up and down lengthwise.

http://www.npr.org/templates/common/ima ... d=12742783

[Paullus Scipio]

Yes, I recall reading in various places that the chariot is a fake.......

[PMBardunias]

well that's annoying, thanks for the heads up. It did look a bit too good to be true and I've seen that helmet before. This is a better, and hopefully fully vetted, image that shows the same thing I was referring to- a blazon that indicates that the artist believes the shield is held up and down along the long axis.

Exekias' Ajax commiting suicide:

http://arcadissima.cool.ne.jp/files_gr_ ... 5B1%5D.jpg

and the heroes gaming:

http://henry.sandi.net/staff/mbaldwin/C ... 20DICE.jpg