Hoplites of the Archaic Age

[Duncan Head]

I bring this up because Snodgrass and Lorimer are rather old sources and in their day there was no evidence for either boetean or dyplon other than vase images. Anything new been said on this topic? Have any archeological finds surfaced?

van Wees (Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities, 2004) argues at some length for the Boiotian shield being quite historical. Definitely worth reading, he has a lot of unorthodox but interesting ideas about the evolution of hioplite warfare.

Before that, I thought the closest to orthodoxy was that the dipylon shield was historical - Connolly illustrates a nice little terracotta shield-model with quite plausible constructional details painted on - but that the Boiotian was generally thought to be an artistic fiction. Not sure where I picked up that idea from - possibly Greenhalgh's Early Greek Warfare: Horsemen and Chariots in the Homeric and Archaic Ages (1973), which does have a discussion on the use of the dipylon in mobile warfare - he sees the side cutouts as useful because you can sling the shield on your back and run, and the gaps mean your elbows don't hit the shield.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The Dypilon is probably the most frequent shield in the 8th century,shown on ships,funerals,on soldiers' back and in fights. However this art is too stylized to be sure how it was held or its exact form. The terracota Duncan mentioned is from the same time and as Connolly states,it indicates that the artist knew its constuction: made of woven stipes of wood,with two crossed bars in the inside to make it rigid and a central grip since there are no signs of any other grip or porpax. In later art the Dypilon shield is depicted with a porpax and alwais the arm parallel to the bigger dimeter of the shield. Paul B, I don't know where have you seen otherwise,perhaps you could post an example?
The fact that it may was considered the older shield and this is why it is shown on heroic scenes does not mean it was not used at that time. After all,in the heroic scenes most of the heroes have argolic shields and only some have dypilon.
I think it may was used even in the early 7th century and no one can exclude the possiblity that some traditional shield makers were still making them,especially in areas that the hoplite battle was not popular.After all,we don't see it in heroic scenes in the art of the late 5th or 4th century. If it was artistic lisense and only this would pass in times as a symbol of heroes.But the Bypilon is never shown after the late archaic age.
By the way,in the Siphnian treasure a hoplite has a dypilon but is very damaged and it's difficult to make out its original form.
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

van Wees (Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities, 2004) argues at some length for the Boiotian shield being quite historical. Definitely worth reading, he has a lot of unorthodox but interesting ideas about the evolution of hioplite warfare.

Van Wees puts far too much faith in vase imagery in my opinion. He accepts highly stylized images, often of mythic heroes whom the audience knew fought by throwing their spears, as accurate for the tactics of the day.

Before that, I thought the closest to orthodoxy was that the dipylon shield was historical - Connolly illustrates a nice little terracotta shield-model with quite plausible constructional details painted on - but that the Boiotian was generally thought to be an artistic fiction.

That seems to be where Snodgrass was as well, and I'd agree with it. I don't have Lorimer's books, but her arguement seems to be that if the boetian is a stylized remanence of the dyplon, why not the dyplon a remanence of the figure 8?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Well,personally i don't see such big difference between the dipylon amd the boeotian as to say that they're something separate. I just see the boeotian as the later evolution of the dipylon,or even what archaic artists thought the dipylon looked like. And the dipylon seems a direct descendant of the fig.8 shield.In most vases it is considerably long.In early bronze statuetes its even longer. And even in the archaic vases we see a very big depth(also like the fig.8 shields) in contrast to the generally shallow argolic shield.
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Paul B, I don't know where have you seen otherwise,perhaps you could post an example?

I'll look for one. Off the top of my head, there is a vase showing Ajax falling on his sword that has a blazon that would indicate either a central handgrip or a double grip across the narrow portion- other wise it would be sideways. Connolly must have an image of this, since an unlikely theory of his is that the Thebans actually used this shield and held in across the narrow so that the left hand could hold a sarissa-type spear through the cut-out.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ah,Gioi,at last!
Paul,waiting forward to this image. Possibly we'll figure out what it's being depicted :wink:

[Paullus Scipio]

Duncan wrote:

he sees the side cutouts as useful because you can sling the shield on your back and run, and the gaps mean your elbows don't hit the shield.

...... :lol: :lol: :lol: ...to paraphrase John McEnroe "he can not be serious" !! hock:

...doesn't logic, not to mention our extant sources tell us that the first thing you do in a rout is to throw away that shield as a heavy encumbrance to running???.....not to mention the hoots of derision from fellow warriors; "Look, Greenhalgh has a shield specially designed with cutouts so he can run away better...!!"

That hypothesis seems a tad implausible to me.....

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

To me too,Paul M. however the dipylon shield is decicted far more often than the argolic shield hung from the back,plus Homer mentions this practice for the heroes plus its ancestor,the fig.8 shield was being hung. Of course this doesn't mean the cuttings were there for this reason. Nor that it was used in battle. And as everyone who has tried it says,the dipylon or boeotian shield was not for phalanx fighting.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

the first thing you do in a rout is to throw away that shield as a heavy encumbrance to running

I think Duncan was referring to Riding away on a chariot, not running on feet.

You've reminded me of that ode to cowardice, by I think it was Alcaeus, who describes some barbarian enjoying his cast-off shield.

[hoplite14gr]

From the bronze age shields had either a telamon to sling them on the shoulder or a central boss. According to Herodotus the Carians are the inventor of the "porpax-antilavi" handling.

The dipylon - beotian shield encourages open order fighting. That is misle throeing and closing with the sword. The better trained equiped aristokrats dominated until the spearmen learned to group together and keep them at bay with the spears.

Pausanias while decribing the painting depicting the battle of Marathon in his Attika book tell us that the some of the Plateans depicted curry Beotian helmets and shileds.
That means that these items were used in the classical era.


Ah not Historical but the horrible film "Troy" demonstrated that close order or "tortoise" formation is possible with Beotian shiléds. Not historical but gives an idea of plausibility.

Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

Doubtful!...you don't pump your arms and elbows unless actially engaged in the act of running....

I don't claim any particular knowledge of this period, but the impression I have is that while the Di-pylon shield existed, the later 'cutout' imitations probably did not, and were artists conventions harking back to heroic times - this is certainly possible, given that generally, and certainly in Athens, only mythological/heroic scenes were depicted until after the Persian Wars, when the Athenian pottery artists began depicting real events - and we no longer see 'cutout' shields depicted.

Of course an archaeological find of a 'cutout' shield rim could change all that......

Like Duncan, I am curious to know if more recent work has been done on these archaic warriors of the 8-6 centuries BC. On another thread, there were references to Macedonian Warrior graves - many of them - with some intriguing references to leather body armour. Ioannis, I believe, was going to try and look further into them and get the actual reports. Does anyone else in Greece have any more knowledge of these, since they will likely shed light on this subject here as well ???

[Paullus Scipio]

Stefanos wrote:

Pausanias while decribing the painting depicting the battle of Marathon in his Attika book tell us that the some of the Plateans depicted curry Beotian helmets and shileds.
That means that these items were used in the classical era.

Here is the relevant passage from Pausanias, but as can be seen, there is no reference to either Boeotian helmets, or Boeotian'cutout' shields....I have checked Pausanias and cannot find the passage you seem to refer to...do you have a reference for this, since if correct it would seem to resolve the matter of whether they were actually used ?
Pausanias ATTICA XV.7
"At the end of the painting are those who fought at Marathon; the Boeotians of Plataea and the Attic contingent are coming to blows with the foreigners. In this place neither side has the better, but the center of the fighting shows the foreigners in flight and pushing one another into the morass, while at the end of the painting are the Phoenician ships, and the Greeks killing the foreigners who are scrambling into them. Here is also a portrait of the hero Marathon, after whom the plain is named, of Theseus represented as coming up from the under-world, of Athena and of Heracles. The Marathonians, according to their own account, were the first to regard Heracles as a god. Of the fighters the most conspicuous figures in the painting are Callimachus, who had been elected commander-in-chief by the Athenians, Miltiades, one of the generals, and a hero called Echetlus, of whom I shall make mention later. (later, when describing the Marathon area, Pausanias refers to this mythical hero who supposedly smote Persians with part of a plough....)
[4] Here are dedicated brazen shields, and some have an inscription that they are taken from the Scioneans and their allies, while others, smeared with pitch lest they should be worn by age and rust, are said to be those of the Lacedaemonians who were taken prisoners in the island of Sphacteria."

[Duncan Head]

Duncan wrote:

he sees the side cutouts as useful because you can sling the shield on your back and run, and the gaps mean your elbows don't hit the shield.

...... :lol: :lol: :lol: ...to paraphrase John McEnroe "he can not be serious" !! hock:

...doesn't logic, not to mention our extant sources tell us that the first thing you do in a rout is to throw away that shield as a heavy encumbrance to running???

Who mentioned a rout? He's not talking about a rout, more an "evade" - perhaps runing back to your chariot or your ship after you've lobbed your spears, but in general he sees Geometric warfare as a flexible affair with lots of warriors running back and forth - more peltast than hoplite in style.

[Duncan Head]

Pausanias while decribing the painting depicting the battle of Marathon in his Attika book tell us that the some of the Plateans depicted curry Beotian helmets and shileds.

It's not Pausanias, it's Demosthenes (59.94):

"The Plataeans, men of Athens, alone among the Greeks came to your aid at Marathon when Datis, the general of King Dareius, on his return from Eretria after subjugating Euboea, landed on our coast with a large force and proceeded to ravage the country. And even to this day the picture in the Painted Stoa exhibits the memorial of their valor; for each man is portrayed hastening to your aid with all speed--they are the band wearing Boeotian caps (hoi tas kunas tas Boiôtias echontes)."

And no, he doesn't mention Boiotian shields.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

hoi tas kunas tas Boiôtias echontes

This implies the Boeotians were using caps of dog skin. Would they enter the battle with leather caps? I wonder,were they depicted as hoplites?
Khairete
Giannis