spartan army at Mantinea 418 BC

[Marcvs75]

maybe we should keep the topic about the Spartan army instead of a one about politics or who is to blame for something or not ???

[Paralus]

But it still is more logical that they fought in a separate phalanx,with their own bonds among the hoplites,as we're told they were taken by region. The Spartans even chosent by lot,they were trained to fight as a whole,and i'm sure,adding some strangers among the ranks was not of any help.

Yet that is precisely what the source states. It is abundantly clear that those chose to serve – in rotation – on the island are chosen by lot from the lochoi. There is absolutely no other interpretation other than that this is a random process from each lochos. That we wind up with 120 odd homoioi and 172 perioikoi indicates that perioikoi were indeed brigaded in the mora.

As well, Thucydides is precise in stating that the "the Spartans themselves and the nearest of the Periokoi [to Sparta] at once set out for Pylos".

Marcvs75 (who by the way has to right his real name) has made a good point. Where are the rest of Perioikoi in Mantineia? Could it be that only 600 Perioikoi fought in Mantineia?

Thucydides remarks, on a couple of occasions, on the size of the Lakedaemonian force. He expressly states that it is larger (or appeared so) than the coalition force. The Coalition army will have numbered (in rounded figures) some 10-11,000 unless contingents had deserted. This allows for the 1,000 Argives, 4-5,000 “otherâ€

[Paullus Scipio]

I have followed this thread with much interest, and feel that it is time to add something.....

Yet that is precisely what the source states. It is abundantly clear that those chose to serve – in rotation – on the island are chosen by lot from the lochoi. There is absolutely no other interpretation other than that this is a random process from each lochos. That we wind up with 120 odd homoioi and 172 perioikoi indicates that perioikoi were indeed brigaded in the mora.

I would entirely agree with this. Two significant points also arise. Thucydides clearly indicates the whole Spartan Army was present (4.8.1)"the spartiates themselves and the nearest of the perioikoi" and later (4.8.9) that the Hoplite garrison of Sphacteria were chosen by lot "from all the Lochoi.." There is reason to believe that on this occasion, the age-classes"up to those 35 years from manhood" had been called up. With all the six Mora (each of two lochoi) present, that indicates that the full (paper strength) army was present, 6 mora x 32 enomotiax 35 hoplites =6,720. ( and Diodorus' total for the army of 12,000 aprox for the whole army sounds very plausible)
It is also likely that, as suggested by Toynbee originally, and followed by many (including me) since, it was not individuals that were chosen by lot ( which would entail everyone fighting alongside strangers), but rather enomotia chosen by lot, one from each lochos - thus 12 enomotia x 35 hoplites =420, the number Thucydides gives for the garrison. (other permutations are possible, but this, it seems to me is the most likely). This is supported by the fact that the main body was in the centre of the island, with an outpost numbering "about 30 hoplites" ( or one enomotia) at the southern end and presumably the northern end also, for early warning.
At Mantinea, Thucydides tells us the Spartan side initially consisted of "the Lakedaemonians themselves and of the helots in full force" (5.64.2). This probably means all forty age classes (19-59),[n.b. the ancient greeks, logically enough, counted 0-1 yrs old as 'one year-olds' thus manhood was reached 'in the twentieth year' i.e. our age 19-20 years old] plus the two youngest age classes, 17-18 yr olds/eirenes ( who did not normally go off to war) as well. The latter were sent home before the battle (5.64) together with the eldest age-groups amounting to one sixth of the army, leaving the usual age groups 'up to 35 years from manhood', or even less. It should also be added that these age groups were normally clumped together in five-year groups. Later, the eldest still present would be left to guard the baggage, which accords well with the fact that the enomotia on the battlefield were 32 strong (4 ranks x 8 deep) (Thuc.5.6.8 ) i.e. age-classes up to 32 from manhood.(19-51 year-olds....or perhaps age classes up to 30 years from manhood -19-49 year-olds)
The Spartan order of battle seems to have been, (from the left) Skiritai lochos, 600 strong (Thuc 5.67.1 and 68.3), next Brasidas old soldiers (Brasideioi lochos) and the Neodamodeis/newly enfranchised lochos ( Thuc says together numbering 512, but is likely mistaken, and should read each), the two lochoi together making up the seventh "Mora"sized unit ( though not technically a Mora, but two separate lochoi). Next came "the Lakedaemonians themselves" with their six mora in line, and numbering some 6144 hoplites ( 6x Mora =12 lochoi x 16 enomotia x 32 men = 6144 Lakedaemonian Hoplites) of whom something less than half will have been 'Homioi/spartiates/equals', applying the proportions from Sphacteria some seven years before, with an additional 300 Hippeis about the King.
After these came hoplites from Heraia, Mainalia and Tegea, for whom Thucydides does not give numbers, but we would expect no more than a few hundred from the first two, and between 1500 ( sent to Plataea) and 2,400 ( sent to Nemea in 394 BC) from Tegea. Diodorus gives a total of 3,000 for Sparta's allies (12.18.4), which seems accurate. Finally, on the right beyond the Tegeates were "a few Lakedaemonians" (Thuc. 5.67.1.).
We can now estimate the total for the Spartan side, the six Mora at 6,144 or so, 600 skiritai, the seventh "Mora"(Brasideioi and Neodamodeis) of 1,024 plus the 300 Hippeis plus possibly "a few Lakedaemonians" on the right (though these were probably drawn from the Mora) making a total of over 8,000 Lakedaemonians plus some 3,000 or so Allies, giving a total of over 11,000. The Spartan army will thus have had a front of around 1,000 shields, plus the allies of around 375 shields.
Thus, the reason why the Lakedaemonian Army seemed the larger (but not by much).
It is because of the slightly unusual arrangement of the Brasideioi and Neodamodeis perhaps, who were organised into lochoi, but brigaded as a seventh "Mora" that Thucydides confuses his terms.
Although Michael/Paralus and I differ a little, ( I have tried to deduce numbers in a little more detail), we are assuredly in concord and broad agreement overall !!

[Paralus]

Although Michael/Paralus and I differ a little, ( I have tried to deduce numbers in a little more detail), we are assuredly in concord and broad agreement overall !!

Nice to know. I would award you a laudes if it didn't appear as though it were only because you agreed with me!

I was far too lazy to do the accounting: I loathe "bookwork"! The numbers are as I've argued: there is no way that the Spartan army was - or appered to be - larger on the basis of the figures as Thucydides renders them. It appears he speaks of lochoi rather than mora. That accepted, it all begins to make sense.

There is, to my mind, no doubt that the perioikoi were brigaded with homoioi by Pylos at the absolute latest. Most likey some good time earlier -- at a time when the 'obal' army transitioned to the 'moral' army one would logically think. To put a date on that is mighty taxing though...

[Paullus Scipio]

Michael/Paralus wrote;-

I would award you a laudes if it didn't appear as though it were only because you agreed with me!

I was far too lazy to do the accounting: I loathe "bookwork"!

....then award a laud on the basis of all the hard work invoved in that 'loathesome' bookwork and accounting that I sweated over !!! D lol:

[MikeCampbell]

Back to Mantinea.....does anyone have any idea who the "few of the
Lacedaemonians" were who were to the right of the Tegeans in the line, and why they were there?

A sop to Sparta so they could have the right-most position even tho' the Tegeans held most of that flank?

[Paullus Scipio]

...just a hypothesis, but my bet would be a couple or a few enomotia, just to secure the right flank and 'keep it tight', so as to prevent the famous rightward drift by the obviously less well-drilled and disciplined Tegean hoplites.....As it is, the 'rightward drift' by the enemy leaves the Skiritai on the left, out- flanked ( so one can imagine that this would have been severe if the Spartan Army had drifted to it's right as well !), which Agis tries to remedy by ordering two lochoi from the Lakedaemonian right ( presumably one lochoi from each of two mora, since moving two mora would have meant a 'hole' a third the size of the Lakedaemonian front in the ranks! hock: )

The two commanders concerned, Hipponoidas and Aristokles refused to obey the King's order, and inevitably the Skiritae, Brasideioi and Neodamodeis were out-flanked and beaten back, the Coalition troops pursuing to the wagons where some of the Spartan elder men were killed....
(Thuc.5.72 )

[Marcvs75]

Considering that at Mantinea the Laconian army was up to full strenght, the number of a total of 8000 hoplites seems logic.

In the years after the Spartans began to form units of light armed skirmishers (Sciritai), archers (Cretans ??) and horseman (Aitolian mercenaries ??). Xenophon speaks of a 100 Sciritai rangers and 100 horseman for each of the 6 morai. Who has more detailed information about these "reforms" ?

[hoplite14gr]

Most people trust Xenophon's "Lakedemonion Politieia" but it is very late period Spartan Army. The Skiritae are the oldest skirmishers in the Spartan order for battle probalby from the Archai age. The Cretans and the cavalry come in the 4th century and saddly mostof them could be hired with Persian gold.

The Archaic Spartan army was a hard core of hoplites wholes lifetime term of services allowed trianing in various combat styles.
Plutarch mentions in both Lykourgos and Laconina proverbs that hunting wad encouraged among the youths so that they may acquire stealth and other field-craft skills. Cavalry lost favour and not only in Sparta because it was powerless against formed spearmen.

The most "combined arms" Laconian Army exists in the 4th century.

Kind regards

[Paralus]

Most people trust Xenophon's "Lakedemonion Politieia" but it is very late period Spartan Army. The Skiritae are the oldest skirmishers in the Spartan order for battle probalby from the Archai age.

I'd take some serious convincing, given the coalition numbers, that the Skiritai were "skirmishers" at Mantinea. As Thucydides reads, there is no reason not to assume that they were armed as hoplites. In the end these were anchor of the Lakedaemonian left -- facing the Mantinean hoplites -- and to assume that the Spartans would trust that to slingers and javeleniers beggars belief.

Xenephon is not always right. He is, though, always thoroughly Spartan. His text may not always be transmitted correctly either. If his "Lakedemonion Politieia" is to be taken literally, there are four lochoi to a mora.

The very minor emendation to that text, suggested over a century ago, is correct: two lochoi to a mora.

[hoplite14gr]

Skiritai definitly could fight as hoplites. I agree with you that they were armed as hoplites in Manntinea.
It was just that this units could do more than hoplite fighting.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

So,is Thucydides using the same system for the spartan army as Herodotus does? Using Lochoi instead of morae, and implying that there were smaller lochoi into each bigger lochos? Although Herodotus speaks of total five lochoi while Thucydides of six-in the place of the morae.
The reorganization of the army must have taken place after 464 bc,after the earthquacke. Could it be that the Athenian writers are using the old system,that they knew for centuries,instead of the modern terms? I can't accept that Xenophon,being good friends with the Spartan King and having lead Spartan troops himself,not to mentioned that he served as Spartan Armostis in Peloponnesos for a considerable part of his life could have mixed his terms! Nor is there implied other reorganization in the Spartan army between 464 and the end of the Peloponnesian War.
So ok,the Perioikoi had become part of the enomotia... What about training? What about the syssitia and the camp?More so,what about status? We know that an Athenian phalanx under the victorious Alkibiades was denying cooperation with another Athenian phalanx that had lost! Wouldn't it be contradictory if the mighty homoioi were fighting shoulder to shoulder with their followers?
And if indeed more than the half enomotia was consisted of perioikoi,it makes sence if the front two ranks were homoioi and the ouragoi were also homoioi,keeping the perioikoi packed between them.
Khairete
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

So ok,the Perioikoi had become part of the enomotia...
And if indeed more than the half enomotia was consisted of perioikoi,it makes sence if the front two ranks were homoioi and the ouragoi were also homoioi,keeping the perioikoi packed between them.
Khairete
Giannis

That was the way it was done and it was not a Spartan novelty.

Homer describes Agamemnon masralling his troops putting forward the bravest, to the rear the steadiest and the "bad ones" in the middle so that even the unwilling would be forced to fight. And we all know that Homer was akin to the "Holy scriptures" for the ancient Greeks.
As for the Spartan unit structure you might have read our article last year about the Spartan Army in the magazine.

Kind regards

[Paralus]

So,is Thucydides using the same system for the spartan army as Herodotus does? Using Lochoi instead of morae, and implying that there were smaller lochoi into each bigger lochos? Although Herodotus speaks of total five lochoi while Thucydides of six-in the place of the morae.

Quick one as I'm off to Lake Burrinjuck with the kids and "mum" to catch XOS greenfish (Murray Cod).

No, Thucydides (or his source) is using and confusing the mora system for the army. Herodotus is actually describing the original (probably from 'Lycurgan' times) obal army where the obe almost certainly were regionally based regiments.

[Marcvs75]

[quote]As for the Spartan unit structure you might have read our article last year about the Spartan Army in the magazine

Which article are you refering too ???

As mentioned Xenophon discribes the army in 6 morai of 4 lochoi of 144 men each. So 6 morai should be correct. Only the strenght of the moria depended on the mission

In the 4th sentury the Greek cavalry did not use shock tactics, were unarmed and used javelins. The riders did not use saddles and the stirrup was not invented yet. The Peloponesians had no horsebreeding culture or flat plains for large horse hurds. Archers were considered a couwardly way of fighting by the spartans. So its logically thy relied on their hoplites.
I think Agesilaus was the first Spartan commander to raise a powerful horse unit (1500 - 2000 horsemen) among the Greek Asians.