Elgin Marbles Poll

[Idomeneas]

If there was any permission it was given by the occupation forces of Ottoman Empire which didnt represented in any way the greek state/people/ethnic group, as the british cannot represent the Irish or US pioneers the Indians.

Please don't go there Yannis. You can stretch that argument back for millennia just to justify or complain about anything. It could mean that Italy is the rightful owner of all Roman ruins everywhere. Or that Italy should pay for their upkeep.

But we are not talking about that. The Greek state doesnt and cannot claim artifacts of Greek origin that lay outside its borders. The Greek state questions the ''sale'' of the particular sculptures in the same way it would for any illegal exchange. And asks only for the return, not one penny of the billions made by displaying them.
I believe the british goverment and museum (i seperate them from common people) had their thing and should now cooperate. I am in favour of artifact exchanges and museum collaboration. I loved the exhibition Athens and Sparta while at was in Sparta 2 years ago, where they had concetrated most of the portable artifacts related with persian and pelloponesian wars. You could see them all there and it was a great experience.
The thing though is that they afraid to return the marbles. Because then others will ask for their snatched artifacts back, and the result will be empty rooms that onced made big money...

So thats why we should appeal to common honest people and all together press the sharks to let off their loot. I am sure that British people wouldnt like to have parts of the Stonehedge all over Europe. Imagine if these parts were unparallel pieces of art by the hand of some of the most famed artists of the classical era.

[Robert Vermaat]

And asks only for the return, not one penny of the billions made by displaying them.

I really hope that you're joking here. Billions. Right.

So thats why we should appeal to common honest people and all together press the sharks to let off their loot.

Careful Yannis. You're on the verge of being offensive here. I don't mind anyone's views and feelings, but we can all remain civil abot them.

[Idomeneas]

And asks only for the return, not one penny of the billions made by displaying them.

I really hope that you're joking here. Billions. Right.

So thats why we should appeal to common honest people and all together press the sharks to let off their loot.

Careful Yannis. You're on the verge of being offensive here. I don't mind anyone's views and feelings, but we can all remain civil abot them.

Well Vortigern in my book thats exactly what they are. They keep not only the marbles, but many more artifacts from all over the world for the sake of money making. It is a business and yes it pays well. If it didnt there would be no debate.
So from the one end you have some english officials (and still i dont comfuse them with common people) that want the marbles for money making and prestige reasons, and in the other end you have Greek state that wants the marbles for sentimental reasons mainly (even without them we have many things in our museums, so many that there is no room) and most of all for the completion of the Parthenon experience as an artistic whole. Its not hard to see who has purer motivation. I dont understand how the arguement ''world heritage'' gives permission for taking something from its natural place and transport it in the other side of the world. People can access the marbles in Athens as easy as in London and wont even need umbrellas :wink:

[Epictetus]

Of course money is important. Money is always important. But we should be careful at overstating it in this context. For instance, last year the British Museum took in £3.4 million in admissons fees. That sounds good, but it took in £8 million in donations. In other words, donations to it as a charitable entity was twice as important as admission fees. And if we remember that it spent £78 million last fiscal year, it is clear that overall running a modern museum is a money-losing proposition.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

If there was any permission it was given by the occupation forces of Ottoman Empire which didnt represented in any way the greek state/people/ethnic group, as the british cannot represent the Irish or US pioneers the Indians.

Please don't go there Yannis. You can stretch that argument back for millennia just to justify or complain about anything. It could mean that Italy is the rightful owner of all Roman ruins everywhere. Or that Italy should pay for their upkeep.

Sorry, but these are fact Robert, so why not say them.

Your comparison is neither fair nor accurate, as Roman ruins in other countries belong in the countries the were built in.
Now if Italy were to request all work done during the period of the Empire be dug up/cut up and shipped off to Rome, it would be a little silly.
The fact that the Ottoman empire was in Greece as an oppressive occupation force, and the British(Elgin) purchased them from them for a pittance, is no different than someone raiding the museums in Iraq, for instance, and then paying the British or American Government(no offence ment there to our British or American members) a few hundred pounds for the artifacts.

A more apt comparrison, would be the treasures looted by the Nazis.....none of it belonged to the German Government of the time, so it is now being returned to the original owners in most cases. And they have had to wait for far less time that the Greek nation.

[Robert Vermaat]

If there was any permission it was given by the occupation forces of Ottoman Empire which didnt represented in any way the greek state/people/ethnic group, as the british cannot represent the Irish or US pioneers the Indians.

Please don't go there Yannis. You can stretch that argument back for millennia just to justify or complain about anything. It could mean that Italy is the rightful owner of all Roman ruins everywhere. Or that Italy should pay for their upkeep.

Sorry, but these are fact Robert, so why not say them.
Your comparison is neither fair nor accurate, as Roman ruins in other countries belong in the countries the were built in.
Now if Italy were to request all work done during the period of the Empire be dug up/cut up and shipped off to Rome, it would be a little silly.
The fact that the Ottoman empire was in Greece as an oppressive occupation force, and the British(Elgin) purchased them from them for a pittance, is no different than someone raiding the museums in Iraq, for instance, and then paying the British or American Government(no offence ment there to our British or American members) a few hundred pounds for the artifacts.
A more apt comparrison, would be the treasures looted by the Nazis.....none of it belonged to the German Government of the time, so it is now being returned to the original owners in most cases. And they have had to wait for far less time that the Greek nation.

Sorry Byron, but it's not as wrong or unfair as you may think. This is a historical question and most of the feeling involved are related to the goverment involved. The Ottomans like the Nazis were not a benevolent occupation, hence the strong feelings. You will find that when similar things occurred under a more benevolent occupation, the resulting sentiment will be different (I hope I'm still making sense here, it's late).

Yannis' remark was about not accepting what happened more than a century back in time, which becomes quite academic because of the timeframe. Therefore my comparison to modern Italy and the Roman occupation was a bit stretched, but not as far as you think. Should Italy return stuff looted by Caesar to Egypt? Should Venice return stuff looted by crusaders to Turkey? And I bet Napoleon took stuff from conquered nations that rest in several museums. Did Russia not take stuff from Germany that the nazis looted from occupied Europe?
And so on, and so on and on. Which is why I said "don't go there". Because it's a dead end without a solution.

[Robert Vermaat]

So thats why we should appeal to common honest people and all together press the sharks to let off their loot.

Careful Yannis. You're on the verge of being offensive here. I don't mind anyone's views and feelings, but we can all remain civil abot them.

Well Vortigern in my book thats exactly what they are.

You have a right to feel that way, but writing it down on a public forum is a different matter.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The very fact that they were not a benevolent occupation makes the argument over their return all the stronger, not weaker.
Why items looted by Napoleon have not been requested to be returned is for them to decide, but the Acropolis is part of
Greeces cultural identity, and has been recorded as such by many ancient sources for as long as it has been in existence and people have recorded such things, so there should be no comparison to a pot found in a field for instance, or a gold torq or two.....

[mcbishop]

Of course money is important. Money is always important. But we should be careful at overstating it in this context. For instance, last year the British Museum took in £3.4 million in admissons fees. That sounds good, but it took in £8 million in donations. In other words, donations to it as a charitable entity was twice as important as admission fees. And if we remember that it spent £78 million last fiscal year, it is clear that overall running a modern museum is a money-losing proposition.

It should also be pointed out that the BM does not charge for admission to the museum itself, only to special exhibitions (which it, of course, has to pay to put on, particularly if they are travelling money-earners). Having toyed with making museums charge (it cost them more than they made) the UK govt now enables many of them to allow free entry. Key phrase to note is on p.21 of that PDF and says

The British Museum received £43.7 million revenue and £7.2 million capital grant-in-aid from the Department for
Culture, Media and Sport in 2008/09

Don't expect that to go up in the current fiscal climate, but for the time being it's free to go in and admire their collection of heritage hardcore (of course, you can always listen to it too).

Mike Bishop

[Robert Vermaat]

The very fact that they were not a benevolent occupation makes the argument over their return all the stronger, not weaker.

Which is what I said, I think. Of course, that does not alter anything about the claim itself.

Why items looted by Napoleon have not been requested to be returned is for them to decide, but the Acropolis is part of
Greeces cultural identity, and has been recorded as such by many ancient sources for as long as it has been in existence and people have recorded such things, so there should be no comparison to a pot found in a field for instance, or a gold torq or two.....

This whole argument being what it is, it does not help that today we read in the news that Greek police seized two statues from farmers who ilegally wanted to sell them.

It seriously weakens claims about 'the Greek people' longing for the return of 'their' national cultural heritage. Some Greeks, as the evidence shows, just don't care one bit.

[Ron Andrea]

I agree it's a dilemma, probably without a solution which will satisfy all. Not only do questions of sale and possession come up, but one might question the standing of the current government of Greece to obviate actions taken by previous governments/occupiers. (Yes, I know, governments do it all the time; that doesn't make it right.) Will/should the current government reimburse the British of care and storage? Will/should the British pay rent? Should Turkey pay for the damage? The Greeks? To whom?

Wherever the Parthenon Marble originals are, they should not be exposed to the elements. if the modern re-constructors of the Parthenon want something to display, they should put up copies.

BTW, the Egyptians are already demanding the return of "their" antiquities.

[Paullus Scipio]

Ron wrote:

Wherever the Parthenon Marble originals are, they should not be exposed to the elements. if the modern re-constructors of the Parthenon want something to display, they should put up copies.

I would whole heartedly concur! The idea of replacing them in situ is simply ludicrous. Athens notorious pollution would destroy them in a few short years. I watched a very interesting TV program recently about restoration of the Parthenon - which has been on-going for about 30 years, and due to continue for at least another 10 years.....the international restorers are working very painstakingly, finding and assembling something like 70,000 pieces! Much of the present damage is due to previous restorations ( e.g. replacing the original iron clamps has led to them rusting and expanding, therefore splitting blocks....). Even this represents only a fraction of the original building, and most will be 'restoration' - i.e. new columns/blocks, albeit quarried from the original sources. Most photos you see are a sort of back three-quarters view - because that's pretty much all that's left ! They are, wherever possible, discovering and using original techniques. One of the great difficulties is that the original was built to tolerances of fractions of a millimetre. A major puzzle was how this could be done ( at all! ), and at the same time complete the original in just 8 years. The answer ( found at another temple site) turned out to be pure genius, making one respect the skills of the ancient Greeks in maths and practical uses thereof even more.

Anyway, the point here is that with most of the restoration actually being replacements/copies, there can hardly be any objection to the facade decoration being copies too, and the originals, whether housed in London or Athens, being in a museum....not to mention that in a museum, the viewer can see them close up...

The expense too is just hideous....one particular replacement block cost over a million dollars......wonder if Greece's current woes will set back the restoration?

[Athena Areias]

The Marbles would be going into the new climate-controlled Acropolis Museum. There is a whole gallery with the existing pieces mounted as if they were on the Parthenon itself. The missing pieces are modelled, mounted and labelled as being in the BM. The whole gallery is oriented and scaled as if it were the parthenon. When you go up to the Acropolis after seeing the museum, things make a whole lot more sense (since you can't get close enough to the Parthenon). The Acropolis Museum was built with the intent of housing the Marbles. Nobody would stick those puppies back up there on the hill!!

The Karyiatids also have a special gallery and empty plinths for the missing girl(s).

(Edited because typing is a problem, today.)

[Paullus Scipio]

Exactly my point..... D

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

OK, seems there is more support than the poll shows, and from people who seem to be making objection. Seems perhaps my comprehension of the language has gone out with the bathwater!

The museum is nice, although I understand the objections of some people to the use of plain concrete, I think it is perhaps just as well they did, if the long delay in completion
added to the cost. I recall watching them removing the artifacts from the digs with extreme care from the roof of my hotel in 2002, and the big hole in 2003.
Visited the museum last year finally, and it is excellent, even if you are not allowed to take pictures inside....(or outside when the guards can be bothered to harrass the visitors)