From Uwe:<br>
"Dan, I have a copy of Henry Russell Robinson's "Arms and Armour of Imperial Rome" and collected all photos of Roman helmets that I could get from other sources (the books of Marcus Junkelmann, Klumbach, Garbsch, ...) and I think I know nearly all types of Roman helmets."<br>
<br>
Uwe, I was recently at Chesters on Hadrian's Wall and one inscription from Cohors II Asturum Equitata (third century Spanish cavalry unit) showed their standard bearer with a triple crested helmet. The only triple crested helmets I have seen are the (so-called) parade helmets. Would you know what other ones exist?<br>
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Cheers<br>
<br>
Paulus <p></p><i></i>
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I would have thought that any helmets with provision for both central and side crests, such as helmets designed to carry both a brush crest and side plumes, would count as 'triple crested'. I do not recall having seen the stone you refer to on any of my visits to Chesters but I am usually in kit when I am there and am continually being interupted by members of the public who want to ask questions, which does tend to affect the quality of my viewing. The stele of Gaius Castricius Victor from Budapest shows a helmet with three crests (generally assumed to be a central brush crest and side plumes).<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i></i>
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
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Hi Paulus,<br>
That sounds like a possible new addition to the imagebase. Do you have pictures you'd like to share? (pleaaaaaaaase )<br>
<br>
<p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>
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Such a helmet does exist: the Theilenhofen helmet (Cavalry Sports type I in Robinson's classification, although he did not know this particular one)<br>
The helmet belonged to a trooper of a cohors equitata. <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=drsrob>drsrob</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/h/573/16/25731628.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/1/04 10:44 am<br></i>
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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Hi Paulus and Rob,<br>
<br>
thank You Paulus for quoting me like an expert, but I think I am only a very little one in this forum ...<br>
<br>
The Theilenhofen helmet is a quite good example. Although all three combs are out of metal. Paulus, You surely think of a helmet with three crests of horsehair or feathers. I think the Theilenhofen helmet has one raised middle crest and on both sides two lower ones and I don't know if there was a possibility at all to fasten crests there. Pictures of this marvelous piece can be seen on following links:<br>
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[url=http://www.zum.de/Faecher/G/BW/Landeskunde/bayern/geschichte/roemer/rosenheim/rosenh3.htm" target="top]www.zum.de/Faecher/G/BW/Landeskunde/bayern/geschichte/roemer/rosenheim/rosenh3.htm[/url]<br>
<br>
[url=http://www.lateinforum.de/limes/thofen.htm" target="top]www.lateinforum.de/limes/thofen.htm[/url]<br>
<br>
To the problem of Parade helmets writes Marcus Junkelmann in his book "Römische Kampf- und Turnierrüstungen (Roman Armour for combat and tournament)" that the helmets without mask like pseudo-attic or pseudo-corinthian are meanwhile assumed to be the normal combat helmets of the 2nd/3th century cavalry. But, he further writes, the helmets published til today (like the ones from Guisborough or Theilenhofen) are not more stabile than the helmets with masks. After his opinion there is no reason to see the helmets with masks only as pure parade of cavalry sports helmets.<br>
<br>
I You consider this I don't see problems to take many of the so called parade or cavalry sports helmets as combat helmets.<br>
<br>
I will try to scan pictures of the helmet of Ostrov (DVROSTORVM, Romania) and Pfrondorf. Both are back parts of mask helmets and both have a metal triple crest.<br>
<br>
Greets Uwe<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Greets - Uwe
<img src="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancmed/vwp" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Well, here goes with an attempt to post an image...Unfortunately, the only image I can find is a very small one from the English Heritage booklet (price £1.75) on Chesters. Sorry its so small...<br>
The stone-showing the fragmented head of the standard bearer of Ala II Asturum- is in the rather charmingly old-fashioned museum at Chesters- well worth a browse if you are there, but not too well catalogued and certainly not on the net!<br>
Thanks for the quote from the Junkelmann book- by coincidence my long awaited copy arrived to-day. As my German is schoolboy , and it will take me a long time to read, could you point me to where Junkelmann writes about so-called parade helmets- that is exactly the conclusion I have also come to. It is a wonderful book, by the way!<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Paulus <p></p><i></i>
Sorry- that link didn't work. You can find a picture ar photos.groups.yahoo.com/g...%26.view=t called Chesters. Btw, Uwe, would the Theilenhofen have horsehair crests on top of those crest ridges?Cheers, Paulus <p></p><i></i>
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Paulus,<br>
<br>
congratulation, You got a book with very much beautiful photos and new helmets. Junkelmann is an expert and it is a pity that his scientific contributions are not translated in English, our official RAT-language.<br>
<br>
BTW there are at least two very beautiful books of Junkelmann about roman helmets. The passage I quoted is on page 66 ("Römische Kampf- und Turnierrüstungen") - on page 65 You find the Theilenhofen helmet. I read in another book that all 3 crests are "eingesattelt" (in-saddled in English?), that lets conclude that there could be fixed real crests of organic material. Furthermore the neck of the eagle that is at the front of the middle crest has a horizontal hole - You can recognize it on page 65. All three crests end in buttons. On another photo of the helmet I could recognize that at least the first of the three buttons has a hole too. I think we should imagine this beautiful helmet with three crests of horse hair or feathers sitting on the three metallic crests.<br>
<br>
The other book of Junkelmann "Römische Helme - Band VIII Sammlung Axel Guttmann" contains further pictures of other new helmets. One is the following from Pfrondorf (AG 804) with a triple crest:<br>
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<img src="http://people.freenet.de/u-bahr/helm1.BMP" style="border:0;"/><br>
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Another triple crested helmet from Ostrov (DVROSTORVM, Romania) is complete, but in fragments; and it is unsure if the parts belong together. If they do, was it triple parted helmet with back and front part and a (lost) visor in the cutout:<br>
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<img src="http://people.freenet.de/u-bahr/helm3.BMP" style="border:0;"/><br>
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Here the middle crest ends in a boar's head flanked by a sphinx on each side. On the left side are Victoria and a lion, on the right Minerva and a lion, on the neck guard is a laurel wreath between Victorias.<br>
<br>
Vale, Uwe<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uwebahr>Uwe Bahr</A> at: 4/2/04 1:20 pm<br></i>
Greets - Uwe
I think the picture at the bottom shows two different helmets that are sometimes called "tripartite" helms. They were fitted with a tri-lobate face mask that was simply slipped behind the cheekguards piece.<br>
About crests: I think the Theilehofen is fitted with a hole, just behind the eagle. I'm not sure because I don't have a detailed enough picture taken from above.<br>
And well... The Louvre pretorians have ostrich feathers crests and crests --including triple ones-- were still worn in the late empire. Actually they went through history in one form or another until very recently and are still part of the parade outfit of several regiments around the world..<br>
And don't be afraid of heights. As far as altitude goes, a Theilehofen, even with a crest, is still lower than a napoleonic soldier's bearskin --with crest..<br>
Try to tuck two bottles of wine inside a Theilenhofen like they did with their bearskins..<br>
The more I look at it and the more I think that we're not out of surprises as far as flashy equipment goes.<br>
Come to think of it, about crests: have you ever considered peacock feathers for Berkasovo types? Just the tip, or the "eye" of the feather?<br>
That would be in line with the aesthetics of the period and the crests shown on late imperial coins look pretty much like peacock feathers' tips.<br>
Well, IMHO...<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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Antoninus, as far as the surviving evidence allows, two late Roman helmets exhibit means for inserting detachable crests.<br>
The Budapest helmet has four buckles, one, on each side, one at the front and one oat the back to hold a crest witht he help of leather straps.<br>
Tha Augst helmet is, unfortunately, even more damaged but, in its restored situation, it exhibits two short longitudinal slits on its ridge, alongside with some obscure rivet holes.<br>
My group intends to experiment with those means of attachment for horsehair 'broom' crests. If they caome to something, I'll tell you...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
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Antoninus,<br>
the Theilenhofen eagle has a horizontal hole in his neck, other holes are in the buttons at the lower end of the three metal crests.<br>
<br>
Aitor,<br>
I always wondered how the detachable crest of the Budapest helmet would have looked like. Why did it need 4 buckles - one in each direction. Could it have been shaped like a cross or a wreath? The coins of this time only show crests of the usual shape known from earlier times.<br>
<br>
Valete Uwe <p></p><i></i>
Greets - Uwe
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Uwe,<br>
My first answer should be: Who knows?<br>
Anyway, in a second attempt, I think that, because the Budapest helmet ridge is flat, you'd need the side straps and buckles to stabilize the, otherwise longitudinal, crest sideways so it would not ridiculously fall to either side!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
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Quote:</em></strong><hr>I was recently at Chesters on Hadrian's Wall and one inscription from Cohors II Asturum Equitata (third century Spanish cavalry unit) showed their standard bearer with a triple crested helmet.<hr><br>
As far as I can see, the Chesters sculpture does not look anything like the Theilenhofen helmet. What does everyone else think? <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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I have yet to see the sculpture <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i></i>
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
Aitor, about those buckles on the Budapest helm. Where exactly are they?<br>
The front and back are probably directly after the ridge, I suppose.<br>
But the lateral ones? Are they on each side of the ridge, I mean close to it, or are they on the side of the helmet, meaning somewhere above the ear? <p></p><i></i>
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