Hasta or Pilum?

[Anonymous]

All the pictures and miniatures I've seen of auxiliaries have them with hasta, thrusting spears, never with Pilum. Likewise, I've never seen Legionaries with Hasta, just Pilum. Anyone know of any time the auxiliaries had Pilum? It would seem to fit, having a ranged weapon since they were light infantry. Also, did the legionaries ever use Hasta? <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

The pilum is one of the defining pieces of kit for a legionary. The only obvious differences between legionaries and auxiliaries on the Rhineland tombstones is that the legionaries are depicted with pila and curved shields while the auxiliaries are depicted with spears (normally two) and flat shields. A column base from Mainz show what is thought to be an auxiliary running forward with two spears held behind his shield and preparing to throw a third, indicating that at least two of these spears are light enough to be used as javelins (although not pila per se) with the third possibly being heavy enough to use as a thrusting spear.<br>
Legionaries are attested as being armed with both pila and hastae by the second century writer Arrian, who says that while the front ranks used pila, the rear ranks could be armed with hastae.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Crispvs. That makes alot of sense, since the rear ranks couldn't fight with gladius against an enemy at the front. Possibly cheaper throwing spears were given to auxiliaries while the legionaries were armed with more effective, and more expensive, pilum...... <p></p><i></i>

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!<br>
Technically the hasta is a thrusting spear, and the lighter weapon carried by an auxiliary (usually more than one) would be the lancea. It is often seen with a throwing loop, and could be used for thrusting or throwing. But there were ALL kinds of different sizes of javelin-like spears and spear-like javelins, and several different names that the Romans used rather haphazardly and that we haven't been able to link solidly to a particular weapon. But hasta seems pretty solid.<br>
<br>
Don't forget that back in the Republic the hasta was used by the triarii, while the hastati and principes carried a pair of pila. So some early legionaries use spears, and some late ones--it's only us guys in the middle who don't!<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX <p></p><i></i>

[Vincula]

So, if they carry pilums, why are the hastati called hastati ? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Good question, Vincula.....They could have originally been armed with hasta/thrusting spears, but then re-armed. Grenadiers were called grenadiers long after they had abandoned their grenades.<br>
<br>
The time period I was thinking in was 1st/2nd centuries, the 'classic' Roman army. I've been reading accounts of the siege of Jerusalem, Josephus' account, and there's parts of 'Romans' fighting with spears in close combat. In summary, though, probably both auxiliaries and legionaries would have had thrusting spears, or at least had them available if they should have needed them..... <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

"Hastati spargunt hastas, fit ferreus imber" - Ennius<br>
<br>
"Hastati hurl hastae, making a shower of iron" (or something like that).<br>
<br>
This is I think the first surviving reference to the hastati in Latin literature. It suggests the word hasta originally included throwing-spears. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Very nice find Duncan.<br>
thanks!<br>
<br>
Britannicus <p></p><i></i>

[Los456]

"So, if they carry pilums, why are the hastati called hastati ?"<br>
<br>
Why are they called Grenadiers during the Napoleanic Wars if they weren't carrying grenades? Why are they called a cavarly troop if they're not riding horses in the Western Desert, 1942.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Los <p></p><i></i>

[drsrob]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>Very nice find Duncan.<hr>Indeed!<br>
<br>
Just what I needed... <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=drsrob>drsrob</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/h/573/16/25731628.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/3/04 12:22 pm<br></i>

[Vincula]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why are they called Grenadiers during the Napoleanic Wars if they weren't carrying grenades? Why are they called a cavarly troop if they're not riding horses in the Western Desert, 1942.<hr><br>
Not sure what point you are making here. Unless it's the one (already made further up) that troops tend to evolve while retaining their original name: e.g., the US cavalry don't ride horses any more.<br>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in all other cases it was the weapon that evolved. (For example, nobody rides horses into battle any more, so nobody would expect modern cavalry units to use horses.)<br>
In the Roman case, there were still things called <em>hastae</em>, which were still used by some troops (presumably most auxiliary infantry units). But there are also troops called <em>hastati</em> ... only they <strong>don't</strong> use <em>hastae</em>!<br>
(OK, I think I've confused myself now. ) <p></p><i></i>

[Los456]

Yes my point is units sometimes retain historical or traditional titles. It doesn't matter the reason, weapons evolving or their mission changing or whatever. Militaries are very tradition oriented It doesn't necessarily have to make logical sense to us two millenia later.<br>
<br>
Los <p></p><i></i>

[drsrob]

To expound on the Grenadier analogie: they stopped using grenades. But grenades remained in use, only not by grenadiers.<br>
<br>
<em>Hasta</em> is/was a very non-specific word. Literally it meant pole-arm. The pikes of the triarii were called <em>hastae</em>, but the javelins of the <em>velites</em> too. <em>Pilum</em> or "mortar" sounds like a nickname and personally I think the name only became common usage in later times.<br>
<br>
A similar case involves the Dutch word <em>geweer</em>, which today means "rifle". Originally it meant simply "pole-arm", including pikes; a half-pike was known as a <em>kortgeweer</em>. <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Rob wrote "Pilum or "mortar" sounds like a nickname and personally I think the name only became common usage in later times."<br>
<br>
If I remember correctly, Elizabeth Rawson's old article [ 'Literary sources for the pre-Marian army' Papers of the British School in Rome (1971)] explains the Ennius quote by suggesting that "hasta velitaris" was the original name for what was later called the pilum. Certainly the classic hast. vel. is just a small version of a socketed pilum. But I don't recall if she had any hard evidence for the identification, or if it was just a guess. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

To further complicate things, I found an instance in Caeser's Civil War against Pompey where some of his legionaries used their pilum as spears against enemy cavalry. This further blurs the distinction between hasta and pila.....<br>
<br>
Another point off that, though, wouldn't using a pila as a thrusting spear been essentially a one-use weapon since the pila would bend or break off once imbedded? <p></p><i></i>