Simple Question on roads

[PhilusEstilius]

In consideration of the original question of roads going or not going through forts, it becomes strange to comprehend just how many marching camps that the Dere street goes through to the north of Corbridge. As these are temporary forts I have always tended to think of them as early structures, yet most of them have the Dere street going through them.It may well be that as these camps are in a straight line going north, at a later date some one must have decided to just build the road through all of them and it may indicate that these camps were used over and over with heavy troop movements at later times.....It now becomes a situation of which came first the chicken or the egg, or more to the point the fort then the road.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Is this on the A68 still Brian?

[PhilusEstilius]

Hi Byron. That is correct the A68 being the Dere street does traverse many marching camps.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

For a marching camp I know this is a ridiculous postulation but would it be possible they advanced north whislt building the road and also the fort?

I know the roman army was disciplined enough and had the technical expertise to build a fort whilst in battle or with the enemy nearby, but would it also be possible for them to build a road whilst perhaps still in enemy territory?

Just a thought.

[PhilusEstilius]

In my personal opinion I think the Commander of a Legion on the march would not concern himself in anyway about a road,the main task would be to get his troops from A to B in as straight a line and as short a time as possible. The marching camps would be put together just before sunset, then it would be off again on the following morning. Infact I don't think that soldier's built roads that kind or Donkey work was kept for slaves and prisoners of war, it is work however that would have been organised by teams of engineers.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Would they not be building the roads as they advanced?
I am sure I read a reference to this happening somewhere....not sure if it was caesar or perhaps in later campaigns into gaul and germania.....

[D B Campbell]

In consideration of the original question of roads going or not going through forts, it becomes strange to comprehend just how many marching camps that the Dere street goes through to the north of Corbridge. As these are temporary forts I have always tended to think of them as early structures, yet most of them have the Dere street going through them.

If you have some examples in mind, please let us know.

In my experience, it is fairly rare for a major Roman road to cut through a fort. Most are linked to the road network by spur roads. (You will be able to see this on the map of High Rochester, for instance, in Ancient Warfare 2-2008, where Dere Street runs to the east of the fort, which is linked by a short spur.)

As for marching camps, I can only think of a few where a Roman road demonstrably cuts through the camp. The classic instance is Rey Cross (Cumbria), where the A66 runs through one gate and out of the opposite gate. But this camp is thought to be primary. So it's not a question of camps being built astride roads. The road came later.

Indeed, there are many instances where the camps clearly respect the Roman road (e.g. the Pennymuir camps in Scottish Borders, or the Chew Green complex in Northumberland). So it would seem that it was not Roman practice to build astride roads.

[PhilusEstilius]

If one goes along the Military road, that is the 6318 along Hadrians' Wall. In the area to the west of Vindolanda beyond the Haltwhistle burn, there are a couple of marching camps that the Stanegate goes through. Then the road deviates to the south of the Haltwhistle burn fort, however this fort is a more permanant structure. It then of course carries on to Vindolanda where it passes to the north of the fort here. Then when we look at the Stanegate road to the east of Corbridge, we yet again find that the road runs through a 40 to 50 acre marching camp just on the east end of the modern town of Corbridge. In my personal opinion this tends to indicate that at an earlier time, there were marching camps with no road. Then when more permanant posts were built the road construction just went on through the lesser important marching camps, but bypassed the forts. However this tends to be the situation where we have major roads, with some thing like Hadrians' wall there is a military way that just goes through all the forts but then this must have just been a rough track way. The Stanegate was a major road that ran from coast to coast.

[Robert Vermaat]

I think I heard of this regarding the idea that some Late Roman fortifications were thought to be burgi

It's mentioned by Roger White:
White, R. (2007): Brittannia Prima, Tempus, p. 68.

There was line of defensive enclosures along Watling Street starting from Wroxeter, located adjacent to a mansio, 'playing-card'-shaped and all straddling the road. the walls would have been 2.7m at foundation level, enclosing areas between 2-3 ha. Graham Webster saw them as an 'inner defensive stop-line' but I agree with White that this identification was most likely based on ideas about strategy from Webster's own days (he was a military enginerr in WWII).

Jim Gould thought they were small local markets.

White notices that burgi on the continent never straddle the road like these do, and suggests that their seemingly similar construction suggests an official function (rather than local markets), posssibly related to taxation storage.

[D B Campbell]

... with some thing like Hadrians' wall there is a military way that just goes through all the forts but then this must have just been a rough track way.

Interestingly, the Military Way on Hadrian's Wall is not primary, and was only added in the post-Antonine phase. So again, it is not a question of forts sitting astride a road, but rather a roadway installed to link up forts.

As on the Antonine Wall, the forts appear to have been additionally bypassed, so that travellers had no need to traipse through the middle of every fort on the line.

Incidentally, like all products of legionary workmanship ( :wink: ), it is not "a rough track way", but rather a substantial stone foundation, some 6m wide ( hock: ), topped off with gravel.

[PhilusEstilius]

I would like to point out that not all Roman roads were 6 metres wide, In fact the Dere street in many areas was not that wide. It comes down to around 12 ft at some points, indeed having been a member of Ramond Selkirks' Northern Archaeology Group we found many places where roads were no more than cart tracks. There is a case where Robin Birley found a writing tablet explaining the shocking state of some of the roads here in the north. When we talk of 6M wide this is taking into account the 3 lane wide Roman road, the metal inner and grassed side tracks for unshod animals.

[D B Campbell]

When we talk of 6M wide this is taking into account the 3 lane wide Roman road, the metal inner and grassed side tracks for unshod animals.

No -- when I wrote 6m wide, that's exactly what I meant. The gravel running surface of the Military Way was perhaps meant to be 20 Roman feet (5.9m) wide, but at some points it's even wider (in excess of 7m).

But we are getting side-tracked. Your point, I think, was that Roman forts are built astride Roman roads (unless I have misunderstood). I wonder if you could cite some examples?

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Has it even been considered a possibility that the marching camps where roads go through (examples) were built specifically when the roads were being built? Perhaps as storage of materials (stone, gravel, sand, whatever) for the solders/slaves/construction workers to carry on building the road? It would make sense to protect these vital materias in the same way an army always picthed up tent and camp when marching.

So, rather than temporary marching camps, these were actually supply bases/logistics depots for the duration of the road construction, that were brought down once the road was finished?

This would seem to explain why some roads would go through marching camps, and while it seems only marching camps are the camps which roads go in through to start with.

Thoughts?

[PhilusEstilius]

I think that there is some misunderstanding, for I don't see any where that I mention Roman forts built astride roads. With respect to 6 or 7m wide roads I would like to know which one in Northumberland that width you are refering to.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Ok, im confused. So, at the end of the day, is it USUAL for roads to go through forts rather than beside them or UNUSUAL?