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Axel Guttmann catalogue now out
#1
The Christies catalogue of the Axel Guttmann collectionis now out- received to-day. An astonishing collection up for auction, with pride of place given to the Imperial italic H "mouse" helmet. Plus 5 other Roman helmets (including a tinned Imperial Gallic). Other helmets, swords etc too numerous to mention (e.g. did you know that Greek hoplite winged helmets existed- I didn't). Viewing at Christies South Ken, London from Sunday 25th April to 27th before they disappear into private collections. Strongly recommended.<br>
Online catalogue at www.christies.com/promos/...erview.asp<br>
<br>
Paulus <p></p><i></i>
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#2
Really sad... This should all be in a museum for everyone to see!<br>
Item no 148 is a weird looking helmet, has anyone got more information about that type of helmet?<br>
BTW, Paulus, is the catalogue any good? Are the photographs large, or is it comparable to the online-catologue?<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
<br>
Jurgen/Quintilianus <p></p><i></i>
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#3
"BTW, Paulus, is the catalogue any good? Are the photographs large, or is it comparable to the online-catologue?"<br>
<br>
Yes- it is pricy, but very high quality with large pictures, plus some that are not in the on-line catalogue. I'm glad that I've got it, though I wish I had the earlier Christies catalogue- if anyone has a copy and wants to sell, let me know!<br>
<br>
And wouldn't it be great if we were all millionaires and could purchase this as THE global Ancient World military museum......<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#4
Sad indeed, a reflection of the foolish animosity of the Berlin museums towards a private collector / all private collectors. In time where there is no public money they should have been more pragmatic. The Pompeii gladius is even known to have been found near Mainz, is the best known, and still they let it go....<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#5
So sad to see this collection broken up, How rich is the british museum feeling these days?<br>
<br>
How about starting a group that tracks the movments of such items? So that these things dont 'get lost' like so many things have. It really wouldn't be that hard all you need is a few photos and a list of where their being stored, yes i know there are insurance, theft and privacy issues but these things are too important to allow to just disappear for years on end. Ill put my hand up to be one of the first administraters, all those that think it could be done let me know your ideas.<br>
<br>
Many Thanks<br>
<br>
Jason. <p></p><i></i>
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#6
I try to at least keep the fotos available to a larger crowd of interested people beyond the auction by posting them in the military equipment pages of www.romancoins.info (a strictly eductional and non-commercial web museum), but we will never know for most pieces where they go.<br>
Remember that freaky Japanese billionaire who in the 1980s wanted to be cremated together with his van Gogh painting (was it the irises or the lilies), and that nobody ever saw that painting again after his death ? Of ourse all iron material from Guttmann will likely rust away during the collectors lifetime unless they use climate controlled storage, all but the restored plastic parts of course :-)... <p></p><i></i>
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#7
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Item no 148 is a weird looking helmet, has anyone got more information about that type of helmet?<hr><br>
I guess their calling it Imperial Gallic becaus of the eyebrows. But it looks like no Imp Gall I'v ever seen.<br>
[url=http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LOTDETAIL.ASP?sid=&intObjectID=4265327&SN=5524" target="top]www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LOTDETAIL.ASP?sid=&intObjectID=4265327&SN=5524[/url] <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#8
That helmet exhibits the same characteristics as another strange "imperial gallic" piece also from the Guttmann collection. It's in there somewhere. I made a sketch of it a long time ago.<br>
The characteristics are: unusual "eyebrows", lack of brow reinforce and (maybe) a tinned bronze finish.<br>
The crest holder on this one if definitely strange.<br>
Aitor I saved a pix of that Intercisa but is doesn't show much more besides the fact that I think there were demonic eyes and that the crest is definitely decorated with lines.<br>
And while we're about late imperial crests: I've seen the Augst reconstruction with the "paintbrush" crest.<br>
But I noticed several things: first the slits in the ridge go down quite low on the back. Second: it may be an effect of perspective but the crests shown on paintings and mosaics seem to go down lower on the back, the lenght of the hair decreasing as the crest goes down. Third the metallic crest on that Intrercisa here looks exactly like that.<br>
Conclusions? Well, I don't know..<br>
It's probable that several types of crests --including metallic ones-- were in use at that time.<br>
What else?<br>
Well, the magnificent mouse and loaf helmet and that add-on bronze part on the back. Given the size of the neck guard I suspect that part was used for the lining as well as for the rear attachment point for the jugular. Indeed with such a large neckguard and for ergonomic reasons, it must have been impossible to rivet the back ring of the jugular to it, as was done in earlier types.<br>
But there are so many things.. Beautiful bronze age weapons. Those warriors definitely looked absolutely awesome.<br>
And the usual treasure trove of greek weapons, including a classic Corinthian along with many earlier Myros types. (For those who don't know the Myros type is the Corinthian type without the cranial ridge.)<br>
...And several muscle cuirasses.<br>
...Which makes me wonder, Dan, why you put your stamp of approval on some of those Deepeeka things that try to pass as muscled cuirasses..<br>
..As well as the Deepeeka "Corinthians".<br>
Look at that classic piece on the Guttmann collection. look at the details aroud the eyes and the nose guard. It looks like it was bloody laser cut! What mastery..<br>
I promise that when the Deepeeka people are able to do that, I'll buy one.<br>
I mean not approximatively that. Just exactlty that.<br>
How narrow is that raised edge at the bottom, do you think, one millimeter?<br>
And finally, regarding horned helmets.. Hee hee hee hee..<br>
Vikings, with horned helmets?<br>
German with horned helmets?<br>
No sir, Greeks with horned helmets, and Gauls too...<br>
Actually I have a picture of a corinthian that has not only sheet metal horns but also sheet metal bull's ears..<br>
Moo..<br>
Did you know, BTW, that for an ancient Greek it was considered a compliment to tell a girl she had the eyes of a cow?<br>
I tried that with my ex-girl friend. That is when she became my ex-girl friend.. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/11/04 2:08 pm<br></i>
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#9
Avete, fratres!<br>
<br>
In case you haven't checked the "reenactment" side of RAT, I recently had a chance to go through the Guttmann Collection and photograph many items in it, thanks to M. Antonius Celer (Julian Dendy) of Legio XIIII R.M.R.S. The best photos are posted on the Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis (California) website, accessible via this [url=http://www.legionsix.org/Real%20Gear.htm" target="top]LINK.[/url]<br>
<br>
Many photos duplicate those in the Christie's catalog, but some are taken from different angles and show details not visible in the catalog photos.<br>
<br>
All images are for study / research purposes only and may not be reproduced without permission of Legio VI, the Legio XIIII R.M.R.S., and Christie's.<br>
<br>
T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA <p></p><i></i>
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#10
Dave, that is the most amazing and wonderful collection of photographs; you're to be much congratulated. <p>Legio XX<br>
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo<br>
<br>
</p><i></i>
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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#11
WOW great pictures! What a chance to have been able to handle those rare and amazing artifacts. Thanks for sharing! <p></p><i></i>
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#12
Lot 163 in the Guttmann sale includes "a Roman bronze muscled breastplate, 1st Century B.C./A.D" - see www.christies.com/LotFind...ID=4265342<br>
<br>
Is this the only known Roman muscled cuirass? I don't remember seeing any others published, and I think that Russell Robinson's book, for example, illustrates earlier Etruscan or Italiote pieces when discussing the muscle-cuirass.<br>
<br>
That said, how sure can we be that this one is attributed correctly? I note that while the Intercisa helmet-half and Baldenheim cheekpiece have some provenance information and have been published, nothing is said about the cuirass. Does anyone know any more about it? <p></p><i></i>
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#13
I also noticed that cuirass and as far as I am concerned it's the most recent one I saw. All the others (Robinson/Connolly et al) are southern italian/greek.<br>
The main characteristic of that one is that is is quite roughly made, as compared to others and particularly another muscle cuirass from the hellenistic period featured in the Guttmann collection and which is a true work of art.<br>
This one looks like what was called in the early Renaissance period "munition armor" i.e. cheap mass produced cuirasses sometimes no thicker like thin cardboard and about as protective.<br>
Compared to the earlier types the shoulder parts seem to be wider and they could accomodate easily the roman style shoulder flaps like those of the imperial busts or the Augustus Prima Porta statue.<br>
There is a bar like embossing on the upper chest. Very mysterious.. Maybe some attachment point for a soldered on medallion although there doesn't seem to be any mark on the metal.<br>
Now the question is of course to whom that piece belonged to. Officer? Centurion? Legionary?<br>
It looks definitely very basic, although the human proportions are well reproduced.<br>
Again... Dan... Deepeeka.. <br>
<br>
Down there I put the hellenistic cuirass I was talking about. The difference in quality is obvious. I wish these cuirasses could be bent back into their original proper shape. Maybe it's impossible?<br>
<br>
<img src="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/magnifique_hellenistique.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/15/04 11:45 am<br></i>
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#14
Antoninus,<br>
<br>
well observed (a good painter is always a good observer!). My questions are, do the pieces belong together, could the Hellenistic helmet still be conceivable for a republican officer, does anybody know where the pieces have been found and how they are dated? I didn't find this photo in the Christies catalog.<br>
<br>
Uwe <p></p><i></i>
Greets - Uwe
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#15
Uwe. The Guttmann collection was sold in several auctions and that photo here is from the first auction that was held a few months ago.<br>
If you dig into RAT archives you may find some posts about that first auction.<br>
I saved a few pictures on my Homestead, including this one.<br>
It's not from roman times but from the hellenistic period and the helmet and cuirass were described as a panoply, meaning they were found together.<br>
The more roughly made cuirass featured in the second auction is the one from roman times. I put the hellenistic example to show the difference in quality. <p></p><i></i>
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