Iberian Helmets

[Mythos_Ruler]

This has not to do with helmets, but since the thread was about an historicaly accurate game I thought this could be of use too.

Mythos_Ruler, I was checking your website for the PC game called "0 A.D.". I was checking some of the screenshots and came across one from an Iberian "desert fortress".

I'm not sure how you guys/gals are representing the terrain in the game, but there seems to be some preconceptions.

First, palm trees are not indigenous to Iberia and were introduced there originally by the Phoenicians in the 6th Century BC and later consolidated by the Arabs (the later created the famous Palm Forest in Elche). It's doubtfull that there were many of them except for some local Phoenician plantations.

Second, you seem to represent a "desert" territory, full of palm trees, with a fortress in it as a typical "iberian" landscape. I already comented on the palm trees but I'd like to add that the present day "deserts" of Iberia (in Spain more properly) are actually the result of erosion of man-made origin. Most of Iberia at the time was covered by typical mediterranean forest (pine, cypress, oak, etc), plus grasslands, swamps, etc.

Basically, you would find as much "deserts with palm trees" in Iberia as you would in Southern France, Mainland Italy or Greece at the time.

Hope that's usefull.

In our game the players can choose whatever faction they want to play on whatever random map they want to play. We have random maps based on different "biomes" including Desert, Temperate, Mediterranean, Semi-Arid, Steppe, Tropic, Alpine, and Polar. So, the screenshot wasn't really meant to represent the Iberian Peninsula at all, but rather what your typical Iberian town would look in the game on a desert biome map.

[Gorgon]

Duh! :oops:

Looks like a nice concept. I'll have to try it one of these days.

[hispano]

I allways wondered: "What do they sound like??"

Hello Folkert
Im working right now with the horns and their sound is very varied. They work like aerophones and the sound they make comes from the vibration of the air inside the tube amplified by the mouth and the ear holes which allow sound to exit: if you put high pressure air intermittently, the sound is very similar to that of a mad wild boar shouting. If you lower the pressure and maintain the sound, then it sounds like a howling wolf, and if you make it with several horns at the same time it sounds like a wolf pack howling.

Trying to solve why celtiberian preferred building the of mud instead of metal like celtic carnyx, even though they had the technology to make them in metal aswell, I built a carnyx like the ones found in Tintignac ( "Les carnyx de Tintignac", Cristophe Maniquet, 2005, ¨Archéologia¨ nº 419, pp 16-23.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... ompass.jpg
http://www.romanhideout.com/News/2004/20041129_fr.asp
they are the first found complete and surprisingly they dont have nozzle or curvature in the tube to blow), but the result is the same: the tube of the mud horn has approximately the same lengt as the metal carnyx, and the result is that they sound alike, or at least I cant differentiate them. The sound can be modulated as modern tubes or horns, which allows for simple melodie making.

If you want to try it easily, we have built plastic horns for kids with PVC tubes and plastic containers cutting out the shape of a wolf or wild boar, and cutting bottles in half for the ears. The result is surprising because they sound just like the mud or metal ones, and the boys have a great time

[barcid]

very interesting any chance of a short video ,so we can hear these ,must sound spooky & a bit imtimidating too 8)

[Folkert van Wijk]

Thanks for the info, yes a video would be great!

[hispano]

A video? I will see what I can do.. It will take me some days because the carnyx was made in 2004, when they were found in Tintignac. Now, five years later at least one has finally been restored and displayed to the public as you can see in these links:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29328175@N08/
http://archeo-tintignac.over-blog.com/
whick makes me introduce changes to my carnyx.

While on the wait a new celtiberian helmet:
http://www.apolluxx.com/celtichelmet/

[barcid]

very interesting post Jose ,please keep them coming thanks

[Untilatie]

Hi, Jose Manuel!

That Carnyx is impressive!
That helmet looks like an ancient type of the Alpasenque type... It's made from four iron riveted pieces, and the decoration is so similar.

[hispano]

Hi Jose Miguel,
Exactly, it can be considered as an Alpanseque type helmet. They are not made of iron, they are made of bronze, and there are 4 of the same type known, 2 in Alpanseque (Soria) and 2 in Almaluez (Soria), not one as it was believed as M. Barril from Museo Arqueologico Nacional has stablished ("Cascos hallados en necropolis celtibericas conservados en el Museo Arqueologico Nacional de Madrid", Gladius XXIII [url:1edgog6e]http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gladius/article/download/44/45[/url])

All of them are made of 4 bronze embossed pieces with different celtiberian motives put together longitudinally and transversally by iron strips riveted which join and strengthen the helmet. Also in the interior they have more iron strips joined to the edge of the helmet, so that even though the bronze is very thin, 0.2 to 0.4mm, the structure is quite strong and definetely they have a cap of thick leather in the interior (in the ones I have reconstructed I use pressed bovine leather 5mm thick), as can be checked in another helmet at El Vendrell museum (Tarragona) from Can Canyis??. This last one is built the same way, with bronze parts and iron reinforcements, and the edge reinforcement leaves an space of exactly 4 or 5mm for the leather. I know the teacher Quesada (thersites) studied it didn't recognize it as a helmet but instead as fragments of a disc breastplate, but the fragments have been restored lately and they have been able to confirm that it is a helmet with the same structure as the ones from Alpanseque and Almaluez.

The best part of this new helmet is that it keeps its original shape, and if it was thought before that they had ogival shape now we know that they actually have semi spherical shapes. I will look for pictures.

[Thersites]

Hi Jose,
I'm a bit disconcerted... where did I say that anything from Can Canyis was a disc-breastplate? I can't recall... I remember I discussed a few fragments that had been identified as possible helmets by Vilaseca and Gloria Munilla, and I concluded they could tentatively be identified as part of a big shield boss... but a breastplate?

[hispano]

Hi thersites, hola Fernando,

Yes, it is the possible helmet published by Vilaseca, Solé and Mañé (La Necrópolis de Can Canyis. Banyeres, Tarragona. Trabajos de Prehistoria VIII, 1963, pages 59-69). Nothing strange in that, because in this publication it was identified as a helmet, I went to see it to the El Vendrell museum (Tarragona) in the year 2004, where I was kindly met by Gemma Sabater and she showed me the rests of the helmet which had been recently restored.

I took some detailed pictures which could serve me to recreate it, but as you can see in them and despite the restoration it is still in a very bad state. However they completed the edge's iron reinforcement oval, so that now you can see that it has the dimensions and shape of a head, and riveted perpendicularly to this iron L-shaped reinforcement are the bronze cap plates, ritually crashed.

We talked with Gemma back then that you had seen the rests before they were restored, more than 5 years ago then, and that you commented the possibility of it being, now I remember it, a shield boss or a breastplate (guard-cuori, discos-coraza)... or any other thing because the rests couldn't tell much. It didn't shock me because there are some breastplates with technically very similar reinforcements in the edge.

I still thik that it is a similar helmet to the ones from Soria province, divided in four pieces with embossed moldings and external and/or internal metal reinforcemnt strips. In this case in particular in Vilaseca's picture can clearly be seen that in the iron edge and in the clearance of the rivets that put together the iron and bronze there is space left for a thick leader lining which helps complete the helmet's protection, because like in the ones from Soria the bronze sheet is very thin (less than a milimeter).

Un cordial saludo

[hispano]

A video? I will see what I can do.. It will take me some days because the carnyx was made in 2004, when they were found in Tintignac. Now, five years later at least one has finally been restored and displayed to the public as you can see in these links:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29328175@N08/
http://archeo-tintignac.over-blog.com/
whick makes me introduce changes to my carnyx.

While on the wait a new celtiberian helmet:
http://www.apolluxx.com/celtichelmet/

Oh well I see the link is broken, these are the helmet's pictures: