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Which type of lorica?
#16
Quote:I personally think cannot be a fantasy lorica. This is too much a superficial explanation to explain the real details in this sculpture.

And which details do you feel make this a realistic depiction? The shoulder pieces are unconnected to the girdle section and there are apparently no breastplates. The left outer shoulder guard is floating loose from its fellows. There is a 2-inch gap between left and right halves, and girdle plates 2 and 3 on the wearer's left both tie to #2 on the right. Are there 3 girdle plates on the left, or 4, or 3-1/2? The girdle plates overlap upwards. The tunic hem is pulled over the bottom girdle plates and then separates into strips. One might also point out that the helmet cheekpiece is about the same size as the man's ear.

This is STYLIZATION. Big time. If you can find archeological remains to back it up, I'll be the first to cheer, but otherwise, there is no way you can use this artword as the basis of a reliable reconstruction.

Valete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#17
Oh my God!

Mr Amt, For you ONLY what it was found in the excavations really is it existed? If a sculpture represents an object that never was found in the archeological excavations, this means that object never is existed? It's a dream of the sculptor?

Are you are sure in the archeological excavations already they uncovered ALL of the objects that Roman used? It would be able to be instead there are objects that the Roman used but that we not still discovered?

Excuse me for my bad English

Valete
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#18
Are you 100% postive there are no brest plates.....I can see a distinction between the middle area and the obvious ruffle of tunic under the arms, however faint it may be. True there is a lot of unfamiliar detail, but the plates look to be either backed with something, or it is a bad representation of edging in the plates......
I would not dismiss it as total fantasy, perhaps just a dipiction of another varient of seg? or a one off?

As to there being 3 on one side and 4 on another in the torso.....some segs have one or more on either side...or is that just a re-enacters mod?
But not unimaginable.......I will wait until I am dead before I give up imagining htere is a basis of trueth in most things......even if not 100%

As for the tunic turning into the cingulum???????

I see the tunic bunching exactly the way mine does once restricted by armour or a belt? Smile The cingulum is what it is!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#19
NOW I can see the image... I think it's a big 12-fingered hand of a giant, clutched around this poor soldier, whose face clearly shows his anguish.. He's doomed to be crushed like fly and eaten.

Big Grin

But seriously Rita, I think the comments above have it right: a copy of a copy, or maybe artistic licence.

The shoulder plates are attached to.. what? The helmet is out of proportion - a gigantic skull piece with rudimentary neck and cheek pieces that seem designed to show as much of the face as possible (whereas a real helmet covers much of the head), etc. This is an artist's view of a soldier in armour, not a realistic representation.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#20
I think that here happens the same that in the little scuta.
The lorica segmentata is simplified for give more importance to the man. And that's more ''artistic''.

My opinion...
Mateo González Vázquez

LEGIO VIIII HISPANA 8) <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" />8)

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioviiii.es">www.legioviiii.es
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#21
Ah! :?
You are always the same...

Valete
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#22
By the time, we can say only that this type of lorica didn't exist, because we can't prove the contrary.

That's history :roll:

Valete bene :wink:
Mateo González Vázquez

LEGIO VIIII HISPANA 8) <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" />8)

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioviiii.es">www.legioviiii.es
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#23
Ok ok it's a forgery...

Valete
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#24
Quote:Ah! :?
You are always the same...

Valete


Why are you upset if people point out that this is most likely an artistic interpretation of something the artist might not even have seen in reality?

Roman artists often changed things to either make soldiers more visible or to follow a (hellenic) artistic tradition...

The same thing can be seen on Traian's column with the too small scuta, strange helmets and its distribution of LS and LH while other monuments clearly show the things that were actually found by archaeologists.

Look, I have a more modern example of just the same thing for you:

this is part of the Zeughaus in Berlin:

a representation of a helmet


armour on top

This is clearly a mix of artistic license and a try to depict "ancient" armour... just because it's there you wouldn't say people in 1700 wore such armour, would you?
RESTITVTOR LIBERTATIS ET ROMANAE RELIGIONIS

DEDITICIVS MINERVAE ET MVSARVM

[Micha F.]
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#25
Velite -

Quote:Mr Amt, For you ONLY what it was found in the excavations really is it existed? If a sculpture represents an object that never was found in the archeological excavations, this means that object never is existed? It's a dream of the sculptor?

Are you are sure in the archeological excavations already they uncovered ALL of the objects that Roman used? It would be able to be instead there are objects that the Roman used but that we not still discovered?

Keep in mind that in some cases, Roman (and Greek) art can be very generalized and fanciful, trying to convey an "ideal" look of something, for instance, the Greek 'look' of perfectly proportioned, nude bodies, rippling with muscles...But in reality the proportions and musclature are not realistic or possible....But it "looks really good".

Many of us adhere to the "rule" that if it cannot be found archaeologically, then we do not readily use it in our impression or reconstruction - it would be making up fictional items to just fill in gaps. This does not always mean that the (armor) never existed, but that is has not yet been found, IF it will ever be found. Romans recycled (metal), and after 1,000-2,000 years, if it happens to survive, it may not be in good enough condition to really compare well with the art, if the art itself survives with any details, and Romans and Greeks painted much (if not all) of their sculptures and statues, so, important details on the piece you found may not have survived, and that information may be lost forever. (an example, soldier's tombstones look like they are shown bare foot, but in reality some of the details of their caligae were painted on, which faded over the years; but we have also dug up hundreds of examples of caligae, so we are positive the soldiers wore them)

It is very frustrating but that is the hard truth. So, we can only go with the archaeological finds and information when we do get our hands on it, so to speak.

It is the same problem in the Renaissance and again in the late 1800's - early 1900's, and with Romanticism - The revival through art and even military culture based on the "ideal" Roman and Greek styles further clouds our ability to seperate "fact" from "fantasy".

Also, later period Roman art, as what I can see, tends to generalize and simplify details on their depiction of (soldiers), likely so that you can determine it is a soldier you are looking at, quickly and easily. You can determine that sculpture is a "Roman Soldier" because he is wearing "armor" and a "helmet" - this is all of the information you need as a regular person who has no detailed knowledge of the Roman soldier.

Example - You know a modern soldier today when you see one (in art) because they are likely wearing some kind of camoflauged uniform and carry some sort of firearm. But, if you know the details of the particular army, you would be able to determine what country they are from, and likely what year their gear is from. We do not always have this detailed information about the Romans.

But, in any case, remember that we try to go with what we have that survives. If and when we do find new finds of (armor), and it is proven to be of the Roman period, then (we) will happily accept it and reconstruct it and add it into our impressions. Sometimes we have had to re-reconstruct our impressions due to recent finds, we have had to "update" our interpretations and information because of new research.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#26
Repeat, repeat...

Quote:Ok ok it's a forgery...

Valete
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#27
Velite, explain your reasons for accept this kind of armour. You're saying all the time no no no....
Mateo González Vázquez

LEGIO VIIII HISPANA 8) <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" />8)

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioviiii.es">www.legioviiii.es
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#28
Are you all blind ?

Any fool can see that it's clearly a leather seg.
This is a major blow to all you leather skeptics Smile


~Theo
Jaime
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#29
Quote:Velite, explain your reasons for accept this kind of armour. You're saying all the time no no no....

How should I say it... :roll:

I made a mistake. Mea culpa. I accept this armour to be a fantasy of the roman sculptor, because all you have said that is a fantasy one. Simple.

You all instead of to think or to seek understand that PERHAPS is a varying of segmentata, all you have hastened to say this armour "fantastic", ever existed.

You all could not EVER to accept there be able to be something of different in the armament of the Roman legionaries, because for you the only real armament is what put on in the roman festival, stop.

It is a fantasy of the sculptor...

Excuse for my bad English.

valete
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#30
Here's another photo showing the full face of the sarcophagus, just to put the detail into a context:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... assimo.jpg

As an aside, the 'rings' on top of helmets have been proposed to not be solid metal rings, but horsehair plumes that are short and tied to the base of the plume at the back. The detail has simply been lost to erosion, but similar looking plumes can be seen in other monumental sculpture which can definitely be identified as hair plumes.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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