Greek scale cuirass

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

I seem to see a lot of what looks to be scale(lamellar) armor on Greek pottery alongside the linothorax. Although this may be from an earlier time would it be acceptable for a Greek impression ?
Sorry if this has come up before but I don't recall seeing it.
Thanks.

[hoplite14gr]

Pottery in the Louvre museum dated at the time of Persiam wars shows a full scale armor and a scale shield!. I think it is online if you search though their webpage.

Kind regards

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Thanks,Stefanos. I did look on the Louvre website but did'nt find it. There were six pages of pottery but didn't see that one. I do have a picture of Achilles and Patroclus wearing what looks like scale to me. That's sort of what I had in mind.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Wow, a scale shield? What purpose would that serve other than decorative?

[hoplite14gr]

The art form if subject to interpretation.
C. Giannopoulos painted a Platean hoplite with "hammered" metal decoration in the form of scales on the outer of his shield.
Although I think Skythians used shileds with mettal scales.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Or the shield was just painted on,like the helmets with painted scales.
There existed scale linothorakes. No scales have been found. So...were they lameral? You have first to explain what lameral is. They had a linen/leather backing. We don't even know if they overlapped or not,probably they did. The lack of ancient scales from the time of the linothorax,could it suggest that they were leather scales? Perhaps,but I recall seeing wall paintings with yellow scales to the side of the linothorax. i can't remember for sure... And the Greeks used/knew of bronze scales from the mycenean times (with actual finds from that era)
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

There are a number of Scaled thorax, helm, shield depictions. Surely painted on the helm and shield, though there are scaled helmets in other cultures- the boar's tusk is a variant of this concept for example.

here is an interesting scale armor from roughly the time period that I at first took for lamaller until someone pointed out that it has a leather backing. It looks to me like it would hold together without it.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion ... at54_g.txt

I seem to recall that there are greek finds of scales contemporary with the linothorax, perhaps only from Ionia. There are Assyrian scales.

Here are my favorite scale-helmed images. Some of the best images for those interested in hoplite arming:

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about.

[griffin]

Both those pottery examples date from around 500 B.C - 480 B.C . The Dourispainter for the Arming Scene, and Euphronios painted the scene of Achilles and Patroclus.

I suppose that if you are comfortable basing a reconstruction off of pottery, go for it. I would also like to hear more about these finds for Scales that were mentioned above.. What materials were the scales? How big?

edited for accuracy.....

[PMBardunias]

Both those pottery examples date from around 500 B.C. The Kleophrades painter for the Arming Scene,

Unless my source is wrong, it by Douris and in Vienna. I think I got the pic of CVA from there.

Page 68:

http://books.google.com/books?id=pKcgAA ... A68-IA1,M1

[PMBardunias]

Here's the link to the vase on CVA so you can zoom in for details. if you've never been on CVA you are in for a treat.

http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/XDB/ASP/browseCVAtext.asp

[griffin]

Thanks for the link.. I've edited my above post to remove incorrect information in the discussion... The CVA look amazing..

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Both those pottery examples date from around 500 b.c. Euphronios painted the scene of Achilles and Patroclus.

I suppose that if you are comfortable basing a reconstruction off of pottery, go for it.

I was under the impression that in these times pottery is the best we have to go on. There are numerous threads here using such examples for lots of items. Is there a surviving linothorax ? If so, then why all the argument about what materials they were constructed from. I thought only Phillips cuirass was found and that was iron, or was it covered in linen,or............and don't we also get shield emblems from these?

[griffin]

You are quite correct. My statement above just came out a lot harsher than I intended.

It is curious that no one else has attempted a recreation of a scale cuirass while many linothoraxes have been done.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I'm in the process of making one.Well, you know it's very time consuming to make all those scales by hand. I've read some amazing threads on how to make scales massively in minutes,but I simply don't have the tools.So...you understand that it will need a lot more free time to finish it. And other projects are ahead,since I already have a linothorax,even without scales.
To make a linothorax you should not only rely on pottery. There are plenty of sculptural evidence,but you have to do a research to find it. Some Roman re-enactors,that are always more organised than the greek ones, have made extraordinary scale armour,some of which could apply to greek cuirasses,if only you attached pteryges and some minor details. Also a member of the HA has a very nice scale linothorax.I don't know where he got the scales from. The deepeeka ones don't look bad,probably they're a bit heavy and you have to find a supplyer.
Khaire
Giannis