Plain Type B Pugio Scabbards?

[Anonymous]

Just wondering if any of our european members had seen a non metal inlaid type B pugio scabbard. I mean the type B as described by Matt Amt...with the single plate on the front, not enclosed completely by metal. Has anyone seen any plain scabbards of this type perchance in a museum? <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

As far as I know there are no known plain type B sheaths. Even the plainest which have (to my knowledge) been published have simple patterns inlaid with silver wire. I suspect that there may have been type B sheaths which lacked the front plate, although my evidence for saying that is limited to the finding of four near identical type B suspension rings together in a stream bed in the absence of any other metal items, suggesting that they were the only metallic parts in the sheath they came from, which had otherwise rotted away. The rings themselves however, are not sufficient evidence to say that there was no front plate. Off the top of my head I cannot remember whether the rings were made of brass or iron, although I suspect brass. If this was the case then there might originally have been iron parts which subsequently rusted away ie the front plate and the pins used to assemble the sheath. I would be interested to know if any traces of silver or enamel were found in the same place (if anybody looked) which would confirm the original presence of an inlaid front plate. The possibility remains then, that this was a sheath lacking a frontal plate, but there is also the possibility that a plate originally existed and subsequently disappeared. As for plain type B sheath plates, as I said above, none are known to me (although there is always the possibility that one exists and a space starved museum has it packed in a box somewhere).<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Crispus, what would this type of scabbard be considered?<br>
How do you think this kind is put together? Could it be comprised of side rails, and then pieces going across, soldered together? Or is it one piece, with the rectangular openings cut out?<br>
<br>
<img src="http://img13.photobucket.com/albums/v39/TlantMagnus/late_pugio.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Magnus,<br>
The type of sheath in the picture is generally referred to as 'Frame type' (although it looks much more like a third century example - Dipeeka?), Scott's 'A' and 'B' classification only extending to types which were normally decorated. This type may have been much more common than we realise for two reasons: firstly that they were (sometimes at least) made of iron and given their insubstantial nature compared to the other types may well have rusted away faster than types 'A' and 'B' and may not be easily recognisable now, and secondly that they look far less impressive than the other two types and are therefore less likely to be displayed by museums. An iron frame type sheath was excavated at Exeter in 1991 and an example (brass?) is also known from Titelburg (?spelling). Obman illustrates parts of at least three more (I'll check when I get home). They are also reasonably common in contemporary depictions (for example the stele of P. Flavoleus Cordus from Mainz).<br>
<br>
The (first century) Exeter sheath appears (from the picture I have) to have been made as an 'n' shaped piece of iron plate, similar in shape to the Valkenburg locket plate but with a narrower shape and long 'legs'. The 'solid' upper part of this plate has a horizontal slot cut out about halfway down, giving the appearance of a double plate. The 'legs' have been formed into side guttering and curve in to meet each other at the foot of the sheath where they have been formed into an apparently solid disc. Over the open side of the sheath two rectangular plates were soldered or rivetted so as to make both sides more or less the same (it is also possible that the upper of these two rectangles is made in one with the original plate and then bent around to join the guttering on the opposite side). Loops for the supension rings to pass through are rivetted onto the attached plates and brought around to the back (or front?) where they appear to have been fixed with solder. The probably Augustan Titelburg sheath seems to be of a slightly different construction to the Exeter example and the terminal expansion appears to have been cast and then attached to the lower ends of the guttering. This terminal is pierced by a hole, which I suspect may have been for a decorative rivet which has since been lost. Overall it appears (from the picture I have) to have been constucted in the same manner as Mainz type sword scabbards. It also appears to have been designed to hang at an angle. It may be that in the future, as more frame type sheaths are found and published, we will be able to produce a typology for frame type sheaths as a catagory in their own right (as opposed to an addendum to types 'A' and 'B').<br>
<br>
I hope this helps<br>
<br>
Crispvs<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 3/23/04 11:15 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Crispus, thanks for the information bud! Though I admit, your description has lost me. Can you scan a pic of that sheath you have, and email it to me?<br>
<br>
[email protected] <br>
<br>
Thanks either way! <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Magnus,<br>
<br>
The picture is on its way.<br>
<br>
Vale<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Thanks Crispus! I'll see what I can do with that, plus with some of the reconstructed pics I have. <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Magnus,<br>
<br>
I notice on your Fortress Building Specs thread there is a link to the Exeter city museum site, which features a photograph of the sheath and a reconstuction by David Simm. I have certain issues with the dagger handle but the sheath looks very good to me, apart from the fact that the supension rings (the remains of which seem to be visible in both the drawing and the photograph) have been omitted.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 3/24/04 9:26 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

in response to the original question, i've seen a plain type b from xanten, which may have been made from brass (doubly strange). Incidentally i cant remember seeing this one in Obmanns recent book.<br>
I think one of the sheaths from chester was plain, but dont quote me on that one. <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Ennius,<br>
<br>
Do you have a picture of that sheath? If so is there any chance of you posting it?<br>
There is one sheath featured by Obmann (near the end, immediately before the frame type sheaths) which may be a plain type B, but the drawing suggests that the surface is too corroded to tell. I don't know if Obmann says anything about it as my mastery of German is basic at best. If anyone out there has any information on this sheath PLEASE let me know.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

As a matter of fact, i do indeed have a picture albeit not a very good one. Im not used to posting piccies, so i'll give you a print out in Rome if your going. <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Thanks Ennius,<br>
<br>
Yes, I will be in Rome the weekend after Easter so hopefully I'll see you then. I'll probably be recognisable as the one in the blue tunica who never stops talking.<br>
<br>
Vale<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>