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03-30-2004, 04:36 PM

Can someone tell me when the first chain mail was used, was it original a Celtic find or was it already in use with the early roman republic army?. If it is, is there a difference between the manufacturing between the Roman and the Celtic chain mail?

03-31-2004, 06:50 AM

Theres no such thing as chainmail !! its just mail. from the French for netting. 
 
Phew ... sorry .... for some irrational reason it bugs me. 
 
 
Rumour has it that it was a Celtic invention borrowed by the Romans so if this is true it is unlikely that construction would differ. 
 
Does anyone out there know when the earliest find dates to ? 
 
Conal

03-31-2004, 11:05 AM

Sorry about the chain, but English is not my native language. 
But thanks anyway..

03-31-2004, 02:31 PM

Dont apologise .... its me ... and even native speakers do it. 
 
It's worked its way into the language so I will have to lump it

Vincula · 03-31-2004, 02:54 PM

I quote from Bishop & Coulston (who else?): 
Quote:<hr>Since mail is so rarely deposited in the archaeological record, it is not surprising that we do not have much surviving from the Republic.<hr> 
They reckon Schulten found some at Renieblas.

Crispvs · 03-31-2004, 04:59 PM

Polybius, writing in the latter half of the second century BC, says that whilst most Roman legionaries of his time wore an eight inch square breastplate, some wealthier legionaries wore Gallic mail shirts. This indicates that mail may not have been in use for very long by the Roman army (although caution needs to be exercised here as it could have been passed down in families for generations). It also indicates that the Gauls already had mail as well as indicating that a Greek audience reading his work would already be familiar with it (suggesting that Greek soldiers may have worn mail). The fact that he descibes it as 'Gallic mail' could indicate two things: firstly that mail was an exclusively Gallic type of armour, or secondly that mail was used by various armies but that there was something distinctive about Gallic mail which set it apart from other types (Gallic-type shoulder guards come to mind here). 
There is nothing in his comment (that I know of) to indicate how long mail armour had existed, but there is at least the suggestion that the Gauls may have had it first. 
 
Crispvs

drsrob · 04-01-2004, 09:02 AM

Judging from the translations available to me at the moment Polybius does not actually say that the mail shirt is Gallic. (I'd have to check the original Greek text to be sure, but perhaps somebody knows better) Greetings 
 
Rob Wolters

Flavius · 04-01-2004, 12:55 PM

Salvete, 
if I remember well, Polybius uses the greek term "alusidotous", meaning, more or less, "ironmail with hooks" (in Latin lorica hamata means: "armour with hooks (rings)"). I don't remember references about a Gallic origin, at least in the book VI. 
 
Valete omnes.

Vincula · 04-01-2004, 08:44 PM

Quote:<hr>was it originally a Celtic find or was it already in use with the early roman republic army?<hr> 
Everyone seems to agree that it was a Celtic invention. The Romans themselves seem to have thought so.

Flavius · 04-02-2004, 05:22 AM

Salve, 
after a check of the Polybius original text, I have to correct my previous post (lame memory...). "Alusidotos" means letterally "made with little chains" and comes from "alusis", meaning just "chain", or also a necklace. 
And so, Leythe, you ... was right! 
The origins of the mail shirt are not so clear. 
If I'm not wrong the most ancient rests found up till now go back to IV century B.C. (Ciumesti , Romania). So maybe mail came from central Europe, and was certainly used by Celts before Romans, also if Polybius doesn't mention it. 
This is a common opinion and I would like to know some reference about. 
Probably Romans adopted it after the Gallic wars and the sack of Rome (390 B.C.). 
Valete omnes. --------- 
Fecisti patriam diversis gentibus unam; 
profuit iniustis te dominante capi; 
dumque offers victis proprii consortia iuris, 
Urbem fecisti, quod prius orbis erat. 
(Rutilius Namatianus - De Reditu Suo, I, 63-66)

04-02-2004, 06:25 AM

Isn't it Pliny who says that the Celts invented mail? 
 
The alternative story often repeated is that it was a Scythian invention. However while mail is found in some Scyth and Sarmatian graves, I'm sure I read one account which debunked a lot of the supposed early Scyth mail, suggesting that reports of Scyth mail in the 6th-century BC were based on mistranslations of the Russian excavation reports. Can't remember where this came from, though.

04-02-2004, 02:14 PM

Don't we say "chain mail" to differentiate between that and "scale mail?"

Crispvs · 04-02-2004, 05:48 PM

As has been said elsewhere, 'scale mail' is a term dating to the Nineteenth century, when for some reason writers started referring to ANY armour as 'mail'. As I understand it, the word 'mail' is derived from the Old French (and Latin?) word for 'net', which clearly marks it out as meaning "chainmail". Scale is so called because it is composed of small metal scales (resembling fish scales) but that does not qualify it to be correctly called 'mail'. 
 
Crispvs

04-03-2004, 07:56 AM

It was Samuel Rush Meyrick who started all these 'mail' terms off in the late 19th century. As well as 'chain-mail' and 'scale-mail', he also invented terms such as trelliced, rustered, mascled etc, all of which mean the same thing - MAIL! F.M. Kelly thoroughly trounced this, and Claude Blair delivered the coup-de-grace in 'European Armour'. Needless to say, some people still use the term as it has seeped into the English language. 
 
Celer.

04-03-2004, 06:18 PM

Chainmail...Mail...Maille...s'all the same. Armor made of thousands of interlocked rings of Iron. 
 
We're stuck with it. Personally I try to use Mail/Maille as often as possible. I used to get so annoyed with people who said Chainmail, but I've gotten to the point where I've become numb. I'll say Mail, but if they still call it chainmail, I'll shrug it off. The way I see it, as long as everyone knows what you are talking about, then that's one less hurdle in educating [the public]. I'll usually say something like 
"This is called Mail/maille (from the French word; et al) but some people still call it chainmail. Mail is now the official term for this armor". 
 
Personally I'd like to see mail become the offical, all used term, but people still want to call it chainmail. This isn't helped by Renassiance Faires and other groups who insist on being stubborn. It's old terminology, and people don't always adopt changes quickly....Esspecially when you've grown up with those terms. 
 
I remember when I was a kid, I wondered why the bleep it was called mail, what did armor have to do with a letter you got from the post office?! 
 
it's the same problem with bird terminology. People still call them "Seagulls" but you almost never see a Gull on the ocean, infact more Gulls are being seen inland, far from water, living off our trash and McDonald's and crap. Besides, "seagull" is so damned vague, it doesn't help in identification, it's as vague as "that bird over there". We're just stuck with it. Eventually the new, proper term could take over. 
 
See, gull? Seegull! Sea...gull... Petrel? Shearwater? Gannet?? I see the Gull, but I don't see no sea! 
 
It could be worse, I'm still called a "Roman Knight" (or just "Knight") by little kids when I do programs. Although nothing was as heartbreaking as being called "Fake" by some smartass 5 year olds. 
 
velete 
ANDY

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