The thickness of the nose

[Nieczar]

hi

maybe it's stupid question but maybe someone know what was the thickness of the material (bronze,iron) on the nose's top in roman parade masks ?

I'm interested because, I make masks and I'm interested what technique was used to make this ...I mean raising or forging down?

I'm looking at the pictures of originals and I see very different thicknesses of the masks ....someones are very tiny and someones are fat (even 3-4mm on the rand )...but even very fat mask can to have very tiny nose on the top - it's depend of what technique was used

thanx for any help

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hello Nieczar,

Welcome to RAT, and hopefully someone wil lbe able to answer your question, as it is a good one!

Perhaps you can add your real name to your signature in your profile, as it is a Forum Rule, unless Nieczar is your real name of course...

[Nieczar]

hi

"Nieczar" it's my nickname ,but it's first half of my real name - Nieczarowski
...and the information about my real name is in my profile


I hope there's someone who can to answer me ...if not - it's shame

I know what was the way of the making of medieval masks from Easten Europe and Near East ....but I'm interested what technique was used in roman period ?

[jvrjenivs]

I hope there's someone who can to answer me ...if not - it's shame

You only have to wait untill everyone has had time to read your post.

Tada: an answer:

Recent research on the Nijmegen face-mask shows that they were raised from 3 times folded iron (with a cover of raised silversheet) 2 till 3 mm thick.
Glued to the mask was a 0.2-.3 mm raised silver sheet.

[Nieczar]

thank You....so, all mask is made by raising process ?

2-3mm it's quite well so the mask must be heavy (?)

I understand the raising process was only way for the mask making ...and there's no matter how fat was the material ?

most of medieval masks are made in the same thickness ... but the nose ( the top or lower part with air-holes ) is welded by copper to the mask....but I don't know (but I know not more yet ) any roman mask with welded nose


sorry ,if I was no-patient

[jvrjenivs]

I only know the details of the Nijmegen face mask of Kops Plateau helmet I. (There were found parts of 3 face-mask which are similar (also one simalar from Xanten and a brass one, now in the RMO, leiden, The Netherlands).

As far as I know those were all raised out of one sheet, so no welded on nose. But, as I said, these are the details of the Nijmegen masks. It seems you use previously did the Kalkriese mask, as in your avatar, which could be different.

I don't know that much of forging/metalworking, yet. But I would say if you rais out the mask out of a sheet of metal, the metal will be thinner at the most worked areas, as is the nose.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Some of the 3rd century cavalry masks are quite thin, with material being less than 0,7 mm. The earlier types are thicker. The later ones a remede usually of forging-bronze, which is even at that "thickness" extremely stable, the masks being also quite stable due to their construction (arched vs. flat surface)
See: M. Junkelmann, Reiter wie Statuen aus Erz, Mainz, 1999.

[Nieczar]

thanx for the answer

is 0,7mm enaugh for good protect ? ....was it really battle-show mask or maybe just parade ?

I'm interested how so tiny metal was prepared (maybe it was hardened....we talk about bronze (?) ) to use it in "sport fight"

please forgive me so many (maybe stupid) questions but this case interested me as armorer ...and this is the way to make my skills better (I hope so :wink: )

....and I'm impressed by fantastic level of the work of roman "masks makers"

[jvrjenivs]

As I mentioned in my first post, the iron of the Nijmegen mask was folded 3 times (so it finally consists of 8 layers), which made it really strong. As I understand from the test report, this was a common feature through time.

The question if those masks are for combat- ore parade use is a widely discussed one. I think the Nijmegen ones were for combat, but don't know that much about the later ones.

[Tarbicus]

If the Kalkriese mask was found at the accepted site of a battle, then surely that means it was lost in battle?

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

0,7 is better protectionthan 0,0. :lol:

Seriously: i think the mask can be used in battle, even if it was only 0,7. Probably that thicknes can't stop the direct blow of a sword, but probably can protect from indirect blows, little projections of wood (pole arms breaken). In other way, they get the user a very terrific appearence!

And remember that a thickness get by hammering it's a lot stronger than a one get by milling rolls: the hammer compress more the particles.

[jvrjenivs]

If the Kalkriese mask was found at the accepted site of a battle, then surely that means it was lost in battle?

I don't know how the kalkriese mask was attached to the helmet, but for the Nijmegen masks you could easily remove the pin wich hold the mask to the helmet and put the mask on your belt or in your bag.

But I think this is a point we will probably never know for sure. At least the Nijmegen mask has showed to be protective.

[Tarbicus]

If the Kalkriese mask was found at the accepted site of a battle, then surely that means it was lost in battle?

But I think this is a point we will probably never know for sure. At least the Nijmegen mask has showed to be protective.

I think we can know for sure, simply because the Kalkriese mask wasn't found at a parade ground, but a battle site.

[Nieczar]

I know from experience is easier to harden bronze or brass plate only by hammer when the surface is regular (flat piece or sphere)

but what about irregular plate of some part of the mask ...for exemple the hair, eyes, lips and decorate relieph (repouse) ?
...it's hard to do by hamerring ...and not destroy in the time of work (when the thicknes is lower than 1mm)

...I say it as armorer but maybe my skills aren't good yet


is it possible to use other way to harden bronze (brass) mask or helmets ? ...maybe is it possible to harden by temperature - similar to steel ?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I know this is probably a silly idea, but perhaps they had a form on which they hammered the mask? Would that not allow them to harden it while giving it the detail required?