08-20-2003, 12:41 PM
Wagnijo,<br>
<br>
<em>"But we have to consider that we are not comparing<br>
whole populations but rather the segments that was<br>
recruited for military service."</em><br>
<br>
I think you are underestimating the Roman military training system. Legionarys were put through an unbelievably grueling basic training course. Those that weren't strong enough physically, didn't make it. The Romans were probably the best trained army in regards to physical fitness aside from the Spartans. Height, in combat has little effect on soldiers armed with tower shields, fighting in ranks. In fact, this would probably make it easier to come underneath a germanic's guard and stab the belly.<br>
<br>
<em>"All in all I would expect that the average Germanic warrior had an perhaps slight advantage in bodystrength,<br>
height and reach over the average Roman soldier in the first couple of cent. AD."</em><br>
<br>
You also stated that the the citizen farmer/soldier ceased to exist. But you are also not considering the fact that Roman legions were also recruited from conquered territories, producing non-native Italian legionarys, <strong>as well as</strong> auxilliaries from gaul <em>and</em> germany. Now, consider too, that once in the army, the legions had access to the best medical facilities in the entire western world. I don't think germans did. As such, a Roman army had a much higher degree of physical health than say, a germanic one. I don't ever recall hearing anything of germanic surgeons or medical knowledge.<br>
<br>
Height is also <strong>not</strong> an indicator of physical strength. Short, stockey body types have an incredible potential for power, as well, someone that is not very tall, has a <em>lower centre of gravity</em>. Making them much more balanced, and difficult to knock down in combat. Reach is only a factor in a duel with long weapons. I bet you, that 100% of the time, just about every ENEMY of Rome had a reach advantage. Romans were using 20" blades, remember?<br>
<br>
<em>Training<br>
<br>
I think there is no match here.<br>
<br>
Germanic society was build around a warrior ideology and<br>
the boys destined to be warriors would have been training and playing combat related games from early<br>
childhood.</em><br>
<br>
BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.....Wow. That is one heck of a statement. So based on your theory then, childhood games are an immaculate substitute for professional training and discipline. Which only the <strong>Roman</strong> army had. I`m sorry, but I can`t see that holding much weight. Ask anyone that`s been in the army. I don`t think we can accurately assess either, whether or not Roman children played the same games. In fact, one of your points was that the legions were more and more recruited from the poor, lower classes. It would make sense to me then, that survival for these kids was an everyday battle. Between surviving on the streets, finding food, etc.<br>
<br>
<em>His Roman counterpart would no doubt be tough and streetwise but he would only encounter real military training at some point in his late teens - at the earliest.<br>
And the the emphasis would be on formation fighting although some individual training would have occurred.</em><br>
<br>
Again, what do prior, childhood experiences have to do with actual combat. As near as I can figure, nothing. The differences experienced in training for warfare and fighting with the local bully are so vast as to almost make these points invalid. You speak of a warrior society. I think of the Spartans when I hear this. When I hear of it applied to `germanics` I consider a culture brought up on a backround of tribal warfare. This is no substitue for discipline. It is no subsititute for an army trained in <strong>all</strong> aspects of warfare. It is not a substitute for the physical ability and adaptability of the Roman army.<br>
<br>
The emphasis on fighting in formation is one of the reaons that the Romans were successful, and why they had an empire and Germany didn`t, I might add.<br>
<br>
<em>Germanic warriors would probably more often fight other<br>
guys brought up their own tradition than Romans. Hence<br>
more single combat experience</em><br>
<br>
And that is valid when fighting in an army numbering in the thousands how again? And do you speak of these germanics figthing in a context of sword and sheild, or just fist fights? Again, there is a difference eh? Naturally, there is also a wide gap between the experience of fighting with the boys down the path, and fighting in an all out battle. They don`t even compare.<br>
<br>
<em>Equipment<br>
<br>
The germanic Equipment would be more geared towards<br>
single combat.<br>
<br>
The Roman equipment would probably be of an overall better quality but it would likewise be geared towards formation fighting.</em><br>
<br>
Point here being?<br>
<br>
<em>It seems that every time the Romans had to bite the dust against an germanic foe they were forced into<br>
a situation were they either couldn't bring their formations<br>
up or the formations were broken early on.</em><br>
<br>
Do you have any idea how long the Romans occupied <em>germanic</em> territory, west of the Rhine and Danube? Centuries. Guess how that was accomplished....it wasn`t through diplomacy.<br>
<br>
<em>The classic example is of course Teutoburger Wald<br>
where an numeric inferior Germanic army made mincemeat out of 3 legions.<br>
<br>
There was of course the element of surprise but TW was<br>
a protracted running battle going on over several days so<br>
the Romans must at some early point have figured out what was going on.</em><br>
<br>
I think more research on the Varus Disaster is required on your part here. The Roman colum was stretched out over 10 miles, in some parts, the legions were 3 ranks wide. Element of surprise? They were betrayed, and set up in one of the best ambushes ever executed. For further reading, try [url=http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=223.topic" target="top]here[/url], [url=http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=432.topic" target="top]here[/url], and for a translation of Vellian, go [url=http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/vell.html" target="top]here[/url]. For a good deal of reading on Roman combat tactics, go [url=http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=23.topic" target="top]here[/url].<br>
<br>
<em>They were slaughtered in man on man fighting anyway.</em><br>
<br>
They were tired, hungry, constantly on the move, in foreign territory, and as you stated, lost the element of surprise. Not to mention the fact that Ammianus was likely bringing up more troops as the days stretched on.<br>
<br>
Are you aware that the Romans made several punitive raids into german territory after this fact, and recovered 2 of thier eagles? I wonder how many germans died during those raids...slaughtered by one of the most efficient fighting machines ever witnessed in human history?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I<br>
<br>
"I know I was born, and I know that I'll die. But the in between is mine."<br>
<br>
- Number of posts: current +1248</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tiberiuslantaniusmagnus>tiberius lantanius magnus</A> at: 8/20/03 2:45 pm<br></i>
<br>
<em>"But we have to consider that we are not comparing<br>
whole populations but rather the segments that was<br>
recruited for military service."</em><br>
<br>
I think you are underestimating the Roman military training system. Legionarys were put through an unbelievably grueling basic training course. Those that weren't strong enough physically, didn't make it. The Romans were probably the best trained army in regards to physical fitness aside from the Spartans. Height, in combat has little effect on soldiers armed with tower shields, fighting in ranks. In fact, this would probably make it easier to come underneath a germanic's guard and stab the belly.<br>
<br>
<em>"All in all I would expect that the average Germanic warrior had an perhaps slight advantage in bodystrength,<br>
height and reach over the average Roman soldier in the first couple of cent. AD."</em><br>
<br>
You also stated that the the citizen farmer/soldier ceased to exist. But you are also not considering the fact that Roman legions were also recruited from conquered territories, producing non-native Italian legionarys, <strong>as well as</strong> auxilliaries from gaul <em>and</em> germany. Now, consider too, that once in the army, the legions had access to the best medical facilities in the entire western world. I don't think germans did. As such, a Roman army had a much higher degree of physical health than say, a germanic one. I don't ever recall hearing anything of germanic surgeons or medical knowledge.<br>
<br>
Height is also <strong>not</strong> an indicator of physical strength. Short, stockey body types have an incredible potential for power, as well, someone that is not very tall, has a <em>lower centre of gravity</em>. Making them much more balanced, and difficult to knock down in combat. Reach is only a factor in a duel with long weapons. I bet you, that 100% of the time, just about every ENEMY of Rome had a reach advantage. Romans were using 20" blades, remember?<br>
<br>
<em>Training<br>
<br>
I think there is no match here.<br>
<br>
Germanic society was build around a warrior ideology and<br>
the boys destined to be warriors would have been training and playing combat related games from early<br>
childhood.</em><br>
<br>
BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.....Wow. That is one heck of a statement. So based on your theory then, childhood games are an immaculate substitute for professional training and discipline. Which only the <strong>Roman</strong> army had. I`m sorry, but I can`t see that holding much weight. Ask anyone that`s been in the army. I don`t think we can accurately assess either, whether or not Roman children played the same games. In fact, one of your points was that the legions were more and more recruited from the poor, lower classes. It would make sense to me then, that survival for these kids was an everyday battle. Between surviving on the streets, finding food, etc.<br>
<br>
<em>His Roman counterpart would no doubt be tough and streetwise but he would only encounter real military training at some point in his late teens - at the earliest.<br>
And the the emphasis would be on formation fighting although some individual training would have occurred.</em><br>
<br>
Again, what do prior, childhood experiences have to do with actual combat. As near as I can figure, nothing. The differences experienced in training for warfare and fighting with the local bully are so vast as to almost make these points invalid. You speak of a warrior society. I think of the Spartans when I hear this. When I hear of it applied to `germanics` I consider a culture brought up on a backround of tribal warfare. This is no substitue for discipline. It is no subsititute for an army trained in <strong>all</strong> aspects of warfare. It is not a substitute for the physical ability and adaptability of the Roman army.<br>
<br>
The emphasis on fighting in formation is one of the reaons that the Romans were successful, and why they had an empire and Germany didn`t, I might add.<br>
<br>
<em>Germanic warriors would probably more often fight other<br>
guys brought up their own tradition than Romans. Hence<br>
more single combat experience</em><br>
<br>
And that is valid when fighting in an army numbering in the thousands how again? And do you speak of these germanics figthing in a context of sword and sheild, or just fist fights? Again, there is a difference eh? Naturally, there is also a wide gap between the experience of fighting with the boys down the path, and fighting in an all out battle. They don`t even compare.<br>
<br>
<em>Equipment<br>
<br>
The germanic Equipment would be more geared towards<br>
single combat.<br>
<br>
The Roman equipment would probably be of an overall better quality but it would likewise be geared towards formation fighting.</em><br>
<br>
Point here being?<br>
<br>
<em>It seems that every time the Romans had to bite the dust against an germanic foe they were forced into<br>
a situation were they either couldn't bring their formations<br>
up or the formations were broken early on.</em><br>
<br>
Do you have any idea how long the Romans occupied <em>germanic</em> territory, west of the Rhine and Danube? Centuries. Guess how that was accomplished....it wasn`t through diplomacy.<br>
<br>
<em>The classic example is of course Teutoburger Wald<br>
where an numeric inferior Germanic army made mincemeat out of 3 legions.<br>
<br>
There was of course the element of surprise but TW was<br>
a protracted running battle going on over several days so<br>
the Romans must at some early point have figured out what was going on.</em><br>
<br>
I think more research on the Varus Disaster is required on your part here. The Roman colum was stretched out over 10 miles, in some parts, the legions were 3 ranks wide. Element of surprise? They were betrayed, and set up in one of the best ambushes ever executed. For further reading, try [url=http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=223.topic" target="top]here[/url], [url=http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=432.topic" target="top]here[/url], and for a translation of Vellian, go [url=http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/vell.html" target="top]here[/url]. For a good deal of reading on Roman combat tactics, go [url=http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=23.topic" target="top]here[/url].<br>
<br>
<em>They were slaughtered in man on man fighting anyway.</em><br>
<br>
They were tired, hungry, constantly on the move, in foreign territory, and as you stated, lost the element of surprise. Not to mention the fact that Ammianus was likely bringing up more troops as the days stretched on.<br>
<br>
Are you aware that the Romans made several punitive raids into german territory after this fact, and recovered 2 of thier eagles? I wonder how many germans died during those raids...slaughtered by one of the most efficient fighting machines ever witnessed in human history?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I<br>
<br>
"I know I was born, and I know that I'll die. But the in between is mine."<br>
<br>
- Number of posts: current +1248</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tiberiuslantaniusmagnus>tiberius lantanius magnus</A> at: 8/20/03 2:45 pm<br></i>
