specifics in Spear fighting combat

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hey,a rather pleasant passage,Paul,but i think it was rather obvious and a bit irrelevant. Isn't it expected that one cannot fight in a marching formation,two abreast?! This was not the case with the Thebans of cource,as they must have had a wide enough frontage and should have been covered in their right from their allies and in their left from their superior cavalry.
In this occasion,if two abreast and 30 were the Lacedaemonian dead,then fifteen "ranks" must have fallen! This was not an equal and just fight between a deep and a shallow formation,it was one between a battle ready phalanx and a marching one!
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:-

Hey,a rather pleasant passage,Paul,but i think it was rather obvious and a bit irrelevant. Isn't it expected that one cannot fight in a marching formation,two abreast?!

...I very much doubt that this is what happened Giannis! The Spartans didn't suffer 30 dead, and obviously more wounded by waiting their turn, and stepping up two at a time to be killed ! What happened was what always happens....on contact with the Arcadian line, the Spartan Column mushroomed out sideways, like when you thrust/squash plasticine at a wall. The column quickly 'spreads out', the soldiers spreading left and right as they come up. It doesn't sound as if the Arcadian line attempted to lap their line round the column either...they seem to have been content to hold their ground... The Spartans were defeated because they were in a 'loose' order, and arriving piecemeal, instead of properly formed in a close-order Battle Line. The interesting thing is not so much Archidamus' impetuosity in attacking like this, but that he expected that the individual prowess of the Spartans would still allow them to win. But as the old adage has it, "..a champion team always beats a team of champions.."

Incidently, this piece is an illustration of your point about thigh wounds, too...

[Kineas]

Excellent piece, even if it does go contrary to my view. Perhaps my view needs some alteration... very interesting indeed. That's from which Xenophon? (He said, eager to go look at the Greek.)
What we all ought to do is start compiling every primary source with a description of hoplite combat, whether in battle or in other fights, and log them for study.

[Paullus Scipio]

Sorry, though I gave the reference, I didn't say which work of Xenophon did I ? ...the 'Hellenica'/History of My Times

What we all ought to do is start compiling every primary source with a description of hoplite combat, whether in battle or in other fights, and log them for study.

I heartily agree, it's too big a job for one person, even though our sources are meagre...... and a great project. D

[PMBardunias]

The statement that they favored columns for mobility is something like an assertion, isn't it?

Everything I write is an assertion, take it for what its worth.

I'm a believer in a fairly flexible hoplite who's a marine one summer and a partisan the next, and then fights in a phalanx the third--in the 4th century, mind you--but on the battlefield, I don't see the least indication of a Napoleonic mindset in forming. Rather the opposite--everyone seems to mostly give the other side all the time they need to form.

This is not true, case in point, Epaminondas at Mantinea. Ironic since the Spartans had used this ruse against the Argive long before.

And surely the Diodorus I quoted above added to Xenophion shows that the Theban problem was, in fact, morale? My assertion is that the only reason to form a column deep is for the support of morale.

If we look at the evolution of the Theban deep phalanx, we will see that it first appears with Pagondas at Delium. We are told that he formed the deep phalanx for mobility, not morale, in order to break through the Athenian phalanx and disengage. What happens is that they break the Athenians. In terms of morale, any sense of safetly gained by being in the 18 ranks is far outweighed by the fact that your flanks are so exposed to envelopment.

If you try to push with fifty men deep, you'll very quickly see what the limits of the system are. Try it--you'll be convinced.

I can see Paullus shaking his head. Suffice it to say that you can in fact push quite well in 50 ranks. The current understanding of how hoplites pushed, side-on, with their shoulders, is not realistic and clouds this issue.

I thought that Brent Nosworthy had pretty much debunked the reverse slope? If you haven't read "Anatomy of Victory"

I will have to get a copy. Have you read :

A Reappraisal of Column versus Line in the Peninsular War
James R. Arnold
The Journal of Military History, Vol. 68, No. 2 (Apr., 2004), pp. 535-552

[PMBardunias]

....I don't think Xenophon believed 'Depth' was the secret per se....he is pretty scathing of deep formations in the Cyropaedia, as I mentioned earlier......

He's scathing because the 50 deep phalanx and the oblique line is a one (two) trick pony. He himself in the Cyropedia shows how to easily defeat it. You know I believe that Agiselaos did attempt to isolate and defeat it at Mantinea as well- a battle which was basically a draw. I think the Thebans themselves were quite aware of the vulnerability of this formation. Both at Leuktra and Mantinea a tactical head start was required by the Thebans to effect it properly.

Neither in his description of Leuktra or Mantinea does he give the credit for the Theban success to their depth.....rather, at Leuktra, he credits their success to "..they calculated that, if they proved superior in that part of the field where the King was, all the rest would be easy.."

Superior in out-pushing the Spartans who were the masters of Othismos combat.

elsewhere pointing out the effect on an army if one part starts to retreat. Compare Epaminondas' famous analogy to cutting off the head of the snake.

By pushing the head of the snake out of formation and breaking the coherence of the line. Hence the Embolon, ram, analogy.

As clear example as one could wish for of Hoplites in column/open order, even Spartan ones, being unable to prevail against a close order line....

It is a clear example of a line of enomotia in 2's failing to deploy before combat and having to do so spontaneously- perhaps mushrooming as you describe, but perhaps attempting to deploy in the usual fashion and failing. Important to our earlier discussion is that they deploy into battle formation directly from enomotia as they always did. In this case they simply failed to do so fast enough and had to retreat. Note as well that the Spartans lose! This was not a superior formation, but a battlefield blunder.


The Thebans clearly were not in marching order like these enomotia or Xenophon would have mentioned it. Since Pagondas it is clear that there was no attempt ny the thebans to deploy from the deep phalanx- which we must remenber was still wider than it was deep and would not be confused with a column.

It doesn't sound as if the Arcadian line attempted to lap their line round the column either...they seem to have been content to hold their ground...

Odd how a linear phalanx is reluctant to risk its coherence and the safety of its flanks by even attempting to bend around this presumably wedge shaped force of Spartans. Just as they were unlikely to enter small gaps in lines. :wink:

[PMBardunias]

What we all ought to do is start compiling every primary source with a description of hoplite combat, whether in battle or in other fights, and log them for study.

This discussion we are having- close order/push-vs- spear fencing has been going on for quite some time. The concept of Pushing was the prevailing theory until the 1940's when it was challenged. There were flurries of papers argueing either side over the decades between them and now. I think I have all of them, so if you have never read any of the "orthodox-vs-heretics" papers on othismos send me an email and I'll ship off copies.

Much of the sifting through battle descritions has been done. Often with both sides claiming the same descriptions as evidence for their theory!

[Kineas]

I will have to get a copy. Have you read :

A Reappraisal of Column versus Line in the Peninsular War
James R. Arnold
The Journal of Military History, Vol. 68, No. 2 (Apr., 2004), pp. 535-552

Thanks! I didn't know it and will be happy to read it.

(Please take this with the smile its intended) If the work has already been done, then how come no two classicists I know agree on any element of hoplite combat? (I mean guys in departments, not the humble or not so humble but at least well-meaning folks on this list!) ) )

[PMBardunias]

(Please take this with the smile its intended) If the work has already been done, then how come no two classicists I know agree on any element of hoplite combat? (I mean guys in departments, not the humble or not so humble but at least well-meaning folks on this list!)

Because so much of the written evidence is vague and as we can see in the current discussion on here subject to many equally valid interpretations. The art is worse, rife with artistic license, and we often do not even know what the artist is trying to show. The battle? the moment before battle? after?

The "work" I was referring to is the number of battle descriptions invoked by these authors, not their interpretation. The interpretation may never be done. Of course I think they all are wrong, but that is because I think I am right and I do not agree with any of them. :wink:

[PMBardunias]

Persues is back up:

[15] He ordered the Greeks to form their lines and take their positions just as they were accustomed to do for battle, each general marshalling his own men. So they formed the line four deep, Menon and his troops occupying the right wing, Clearchus and his troops the left, and the other generals the centre.

[15] ekeleuse de tous Hellênas hôs nomos autois eis machên houtô tachthênai kai stênai, suntaxai d' hekaston tous heautou. etachthêsan oun epi tettarôn: eiche de to men dexion Menôn kai hoi sun autôi, to de euônumon Klearchos kai hoi ekeinou, to de meson hoi alloi stratêgoi.

Giannis? Anyone want to take a look- especially the " -suntaxai d' hekaston tous heautou."

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

It just means "-marshalled each(general) his own(men)"
The word "nomos" may mean "custonary" but it could be something stronger,like "law". It actually means law today. It most probably refers to the way of deployment rather than in the order of generals or the depth of line.
In the anabasis,fourth book(2,1-28 ) where they're charging against a hill ocupied by Karduchs he says:
"ένθα δη παρακελευσάμενοι αλλήλοις προσβάλλουσι προς τον λόφον ορθίοις τοις λόχοις ού κύκλω αλλά καταλιπόντες άφοδον τοις πολεμίοις,ει βούλοιντο φεύγειν."
I'm not sure how to translate the "ορθοίοις τοις λόχοις" but it would be something like this:
"Then,encouraging one enother they charched the hill with their lockoi vertical, not to suround them,but leaving a way in case they wanted to retreat"
"όρθιος" is an adjective meaning "standing" literally.
Khairete
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

A bit later he uses again the same form:They're about to cross a river to pass in Armenia.Kheirisophos takes half the army with him and Xenophon stays in the other side of the river against the Karduchs.
"...και αυτός πρώτος Χειρίσοφος στεφανωσάμενος και αποδύς ελάμβανε τα όπλα και τοις άλοις πάσι παρήγγελλε, και τους λοχαγούς εκέλευεν άγειν τους λόχους ορθίους,τους μεν εν αριστερά τους ΄δ'εν δεξιά αυτού."¨

"...and firt Kheirisophos himself,with a wreath on his head,and taking off his clothes he was tacking his arms,and he called everyone to do the same,and the lochagoi he ordered to lead their lochoi one after the other,half of them in his left and half in his right."

Here it's clear that "orthiois" means one after the other,in a marching column,as the place where they were able to cross the river was narrow,everywhere else the river was too deep. So in the previous occasion they charched in a marching column,probably to present a narrower face against the Karduchian missiles,but would probably form the battle line once they were about to come in contact with them. Of cource they knew the Karduchoi never stayed to fight hand to hand.

And just a bit later,when Kheirisophos has safely passed,Xenophon turnes to face the Karduchoi. Here he's about to fight in a plain,and though we're not told of any depth,there is an interesting maneuver described.

"Ξενοφών δε στρέψας προς τους Καρδούχους αντία τα όπλα έθετο, και παρήγγειλε τους λοχαγούς κατ'ενομοτίας ποιήσασθε έκαστον τον εαυτού λόχον,παρ'ασπίδα παραγαγόντας την ενομοτίαν επί φάλαγγος¨και τους μεν λοχαγούς και τους ενωμοτάρχους προς των Καρδούχων ιέναι,ουραγούς δε καταστήσασθε προς του ποταμού.[...] τοις δε παρ'ευτού παρήγγειλεν, επειδάν σφενδόνην εξικνήται και ασπίς ψοφή,παιανίσαντες θειν εις τους πολεμίους,επειδάν δ'αναστρέψωσιν οι πολέμιοι και εκ του ποταμού ο σαλπιγκτής σημήνη το πολεμικόν,αναστρλεψαντας επι δόρυ ηγείσθαι μεν τους ουραγούς,θειν δε πάντας και διαβαίνειν ότι ταχιστα ή έκαστος την τάξιν είχεν,ως μη εμποδίζειν αλλήλους."

"Xenophon turning,oposed the weapons to the Karduchians, and called the lochagoi to form each his lochos by enomotia,leading the enomotiae to the left(par'aspida) to form the phalanx' and the lochagoi and enomotarchs looking to the Kardouchians,the ouragoi staning to the side of the river. [...] he ordered his men,when the sling shots start reaching them and they sound on their shields,singing their paian start running to the enemy,and when the enemy turns and the trumpetere from the river sounds,to turn to the right(epi dory),the ouragoi leading,everybody running to cross the river as quickly as he could,in an order as noone empeding the other."

Khairete
Giannis

[Kineas]

Giannis, thanks for the translation support.

Totally different subject, and one that deserves a sep. thread. Is there any plan to have a reenactment or a pageant or something at Marathon for 2010? Isn't 2010 the 2500th anniversary of the battle? Wouldn't this make a great excuse to get every classical impression in the world to one place? Giannis, do you know? I've asked the GoG in Canada and the Town of marathon and neither seems to have anything planned--or perhaps they don't need to tell a weird Canadian...

In North America, we do this sort of thing pretty often--so, for instance, next year is the 250th anniversary of the siege of Quebec (Montcalm and Wolfe) and so I'm taking 50 friends as the Bourgeoise Milice de Montreal. Making kit isn't that hard... anyway, we anticipate 8000 participants and 100K of public for Quebec. Surely Marathon would be the same if it got organized? I mean, it is only one of the most important battles in western history (at least in the public imagination!)

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ahhh,another looong discussion. Such things are never organized in Greece. First of all,there are not so many re-enactors as to present a so impressive spectacle,like 8000 soldiers.Not only there are not so many in Greece,but in the whole world! And of cource I know very well that not all people can travel in the same time at the same place due to work,money,school etc. Second, it must be organized officially and promoted very well not only in Greece but internationally. This in itself has its own problems. Third is the suspission for such things in Greece.Stupid,I know,but true. And also there is the asymphony in everything greek,like we have among us here. No proof,no details like the Romans,no good kit either,in general terms.With everyone trying to make his own aspis,or otherwise paying a bunch of money to get one,it isn't odd that not many sescent shield exist out there,to form an accurate phalanx. Not to mention the rest of the equipment,that isn't as important to make a phalanx. You mentioned you'll be leading 50 men...ALL the Greek re-enactors in Greece are probably less than 20...
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Thanks, Giannis. I too couldn't figure out where the notion of "generals" was in that second part. So niether a customary order of units along the line, nor a customary depth, but the customary manner of deployment for battle. This perhaps needed to be said since they were putting on a show not entering battle.