specifics in Spear fighting combat

[Paullus Scipio]

Kineas wrote:-

And surely the Diodorus I quoted above added to Xenophion shows that the Theban problem was, in fact, morale?

....which was my point too.....French revolutionary generals had problems getting their conscript armies to assault the faster-firing professional armies of their foes, and the answer was the column - mainly for morale reasons ( the guys in back can't see much, and keep the momentum going). By Napoleonic times, the French Army was more sophisticated and usually meant to deploy, but for a variety of reasons often failed to succeed in the teeth of fierce firepower ( rash generalisation, I know.....sorry, guys! )
Back on topic:
Likewise Theban commanders too must have had problems getting their Hoplites ( with the possible exception of the Sacred Band) to assault the dreaded Spartans with their invincible reputation......same problem, same solution... :wink: :wink:

If you try to push with fifty men deep, you'll very quickly see what the limits of the system are. Try it--you'll be convinced.

Uh, oh !......... lol:

And I'd like to say again that as far as I can see, we have only Xenophon, a very biased source, to suggest that it was the DEPTH of the Thebans that won.

....I don't think Xenophon believed 'Depth' was the secret per se....he is pretty scathing of deep formations in the Cyropaedia, as I mentioned earlier......Neither in his description of Leuktra or Mantinea does he give the credit for the Theban success to their depth.....rather, at Leuktra, he credits their success to "..they calculated that, if they proved superior in that part of the field where the King was, all the rest would be easy.." elsewhere pointing out the effect on an army if one part starts to retreat. Compare Epaminondas' famous analogy to cutting off the head of the snake. So at Leuktra it is Concentration of Force at the critical point that wins the day....the same at Mantinea "...By overwhelming the force against which he struck, he caused the whole enemy army to turn and fly.." ( But to catch the Spartans off-guard, interestingly he needs to resort to ruses second time around). Depth plays no physical part on either occasion, but is how Epaminondas both concentrates his strike force, and gets it to assault the invincible Spartans....a question of Morale, as Kineas has said.But just as the death of Cleombrotus led to Spartan defeat at Leuktra, so the death of Epaminondas at Mantinea robbed Thebes of her victory.

For an example of a 'column' failing against a line, how about this passage from Xenophon VII.4.22

"Presently espying a certain rising ground, across which the Arcadians had drawn their outer stockade, Archidamus (Spartan prince, son of King Agesilaus) proposed to himself to take it. If he were once in command of that knoll, the besiegers at its foot would be forced to retire. Accordingly he set about leading a body of troops round to the point in question, and during this movement the peltasts in advance of Archidamus, advancing at the double, caught sight of the Arcadian Eparitoi (Diodorus calls these 'Epilektoi'/chosen troops) outside the stockade and attacked them, while the cavalry made an attempt to enforce their attack simultaneously. The Arcadians did not swerve/give way: in close/compact order they waited impassively. The Lacedaemonians charged a second time: a second time they did not give way, but on the contrary began advancing. Then, as the hoarse roar and shouting deepened, Archidamus himself advanced in support of his troops. To do so he turned aside along the carriage-road leading to Cromnus, and moved onward in column two abreast/ double file,which was his normal/natural order. ( meaning on the march...he did not stop to deploy into line or form close order) When they came into close proximity to one another--Archidamus's troops in column, because they were marching along a road; the Arcadians in close/compact order with shields interlinked --at this conjuncture the Lacedaemonians were not able to hold out for any length of time against the numbers/mass of the Arcadians. Before long Archidamus had received a wound which pierced through his thigh, whilst death was busy with those who fought in front of him, Polyaenidas and Chilon, who was wedded to the sister of Archidamus, included. The whole of these, numbering no less than thirty, perished in this action. Presently, falling back along the road, they emerged into the open ground, and now with a sense of relief the Lacedaemonians got themselves into battle order, (i.e. line, and close order) facing the foe. The Arcadians, without altering their position, stood in close/compact line, and though falling short in actual numbers, were in far better heart--the moral result of an attack on a retreating enemy and the severe loss inflicted on him. The Lacedaemonians, on the other hand, were sorely down-hearted: Archidamus lay wounded before their eyes; in their ears rang the names of those who had died, the fallen being not only brave men, but, one may say, the flower of Spartan chivalry. The two armies were now close together, when one of the older men lifted up his voice and cried: "Why need we fight, sirs? Why not rather make truce and part friends?" Joyously the words fell on the ears of either host, and they made a truce. The Lacedaemonians picked up their dead and retired; the Arcadians withdrew to the point where their advance originally began, and set up a trophy of victory"

As clear example as one could wish for of Hoplites in column/open order, even Spartan ones, being unable to prevail against a close order line....