Introduction of Cataphratarii and Clibanarii

[Scipio Bristolus]

If you want to keep any sort of formation then you are looking at a decent trot at most. A canter or gallop will tire out an armoured horse or horse carrying an armoured rider very quickly.

When considering cavalry tyes of course, you have to consider the type of horse required - the clinibarii/cataphractii will need sturdier horses than the pony type things that a horse archer can get away with. Lesschoice of horse to use and bigger horse = more feed too.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That is what I read somewhere before, an makes sense, especially if still using smaller horses...

[Scipio Bristolus]

Actually, I forgot to add, that to provide sufficient horses of the size to carry an armoured man, and then some for an armoured horse too, then you will need to set up studs specifically for this purpose.

I guess for the Romans (as opposed to auxiliaries), if the legion was the embodiment of the state at war, then the equites provided the cavalry contingent in proportion to their numbers in the Roman class system - when you want larger formations of horse you have to change the system, and thats where the auxiliary cavalry come in.

[Sean Manning]

I think that we make distinctions between cataphracts and clibanari that didn't exist at the time. Many writers seem to use the two terms to describe the same thing.

Sounds likely. The other issue is that the meaning changes over time. Originally both terms meant "fully armoured men on fully armoured horses" (see any of the Hellenistic Greek tactical writers, say Asclepidotios) but by Maurice's day (600 CE) a cataphract was a cavalryman with a helm and mail shirt on an unprotected horse. Then you get into modern quibbles like whether men with unprotected arms or legs on horses in half barding count as cataphracts.

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete,

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but :

• Vegetius states that the Roman marines should "be protected with cataphracts, cuirasses, helmets, and also greaves." (Book IV.44)

What the heck could he mean by that ? :?


~Theo

[Paullus Scipio]

Easy one.......!! )

From this it should be apparent that Cataphract and Clibanarius both referred to heavily armoured cavalry, with no real distinction, at least until Maurice's day....... :?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Oven is a believable description, seeing the renderings in Ancient warefare!! :lol: Those guys must have been cooking in that kit!
Also the poor horses :? shock: :lol:

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Paul,

Easy one.......!! "Cataphract" derives from the greek for 'covered in' and the term originally applied to galleys, whose oar banks were either open ( aphract), or whose oar banks were closed in/protected ( cat-aphract).

Ah, so it originally referred to roofs over the heads of oarsmen. Hmm..I wonder what extra roofing for marines on a galley would look like.....There's not much room for marines to begin with it seems.. :?

Anyway, laudes

~Theo

[L C Cinna]

here you go:

closed:

[url:20nunzbz]http://www.romaeterna.org/galleria/sala2/foto3.jpg[/url]

[url:20nunzbz]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Trireme_1.jpg[/url]

[url:20nunzbz]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Trireme_cut-fr.svg[/url]

open:



[url:20nunzbz]http://bp1.blogger.com/_Z92ty2bEPzQ/Rqw28OpTRBI/AAAAAAAAALE/CV_XvDZAzTo/s1600-h/AlexandraGuestPhoto.jpg[/url]

[url:20nunzbz]http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/war/images/TriremePlan1.jpg[/url]

[url:20nunzbz]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ACMA_Relief_Lenormant.jpg[/url]


[url:20nunzbz]http://www1.rgzm.de/Navis/Themes/Flotte/Bilder/Image/ModellTrajan.jpg[/url]

[Urselius]

The cataphract/clibanarius or "very heavily armoured cavalry" (VHAC), was developed as a result of social and political influences on the military capabilities of pastoral steppe dwellers. The elites of the Iranian and Turanian peoples of the Eurasian Steppe could afford costly defensive equipment, they also had the wealth and know-how to breed large and strongly-built horses. The social systems of the steppe tribes produced a two-tier military system where the elite took the field in expensive armour mounted on heavy horses armed with a lance, while the ordinary tribesman was largely unarmoured mounted on a small, hardy, pony-like horse and armed with a bow.

This was an impressively resilient fighting combination, highly mobile it had a missile component unrivalled in skirmishing ability and a smaller, shock-capable, core of close combat cavalry.

The Parthian and Persian empires had a semi-feudal society which could easily absorb this system of fighting. The greater and lesser nobility fought as VHAC with their retainers serving as mounted archers and their dependant serfs providing 'infantry' and military servants.

The Roman adoption of the VHAC was quite different and divorced from any social setting. The Romans, as a mature urban-based civilisation adopted the VHAC because they saw that it had certain military, and possibly status-symbol, value. This was a typically Roman move, akin to the adoption of the iron helmet from the Gauls and the gladius from the peoples of Spain. In the wholly professional Roman army the VHAC was just another type of military unit without overt social elitism for the men who formed its ranks.

The VHAC in Roman employ did not revolutionise the way the Romans fought it was just an additional type of combat soldier.

[Natuspardo]

Easy one.......!! "Cataphract" derives from the greek for 'covered in' and the term originally applied to galleys, whose oar banks were either open ( aphract), or whose oar banks were closed in/protected ( cat-aphract).

But that original meaning had nothing to do with the quote of Vegetius!!! Dont think of covered galleys!
Vegetius uses the word catafracta/catafracti more than once. It described:
1) somehow armoured riders
2) a kind of armour corselet, often mentioned together (and so different from) mail (lorica)
The passage Theodosius quoted refers to catafracti vel loricati. Probably scale corselets are ment here. That it definitely not refers to the galleys, but to the armour of the men, makes the whole sentence clear:
"special care must be taken for the cover (tegminum), so that the soldiers are protected with scale or mail corselets, with helmets and even leg protection. For noone could complain about the weight of the armour, cause he fights standing on a ship; ..."
(my translation, sorry for any shortcomings)

Regards,

[Dan Howard]

2) a kind of armour corselet, often mentioned together (and so different from) mail (lorica)

Lorica means "armour". How do you know that Vegetius uses it to describe mail only?

"special care must be taken for the cover (tegminum), so that the soldiers are protected with scale or mail corselets, with helmets and even leg protection. For noone could complain about the weight of the armour, cause he fights standing on a ship; ..."

What are the original terms used for the four words I have boldened?

[Natuspardo]

Lorica means "armour". How do you know that Vegetius uses it to describe mail only?

You are right - and not. Both terms - catafracti und lorica - refer to just armour - and a special kind of armour. Lorica (from lorum) could refer to a "Riemenpanzer"

"special care must be taken for the cover (tegminum), so that the soldiers are protected with scale or mail corselets, with helmets and even leg protection. For noone could complain about the weight of the armour, cause he fights standing on a ship; ..."

What are the original terms used for the four words I have boldened?

As I already told:
catafracti vel loricati
then:
armorum - there is no fourth word.

By the way: the translation of catafracti with scale is to be found in:
Friedhelm L. Müller: Vegetius - Abriß des Militärwesens. Stuttgart 1997 (Lat./Deutsch).
He translates lorica with "Riemenpanzer".


What is important here: catafracti does not always refer to cavalry. And the ambiguous use for infantry armour (with Vegetius needing another word - lorica - to sum up) might also give a clue to its meaning regarding cavalry: not a special kind of armour, but - just armoured.

[Theodosius the Great]

Thanks, Natuspardo.

The context of the sentence is about armor, so it seems to make more sense that Vegetius is not talking about galleys. Here's the full sentence :

"So, particular care should be given to protective armor, so that soldiers (i.e. marines) may be protected with cataphracts, cuirasses, helmets and also greaves."

What are the original terms used for the four words I have boldened?

I wish my English translation had the original Latin printed next to it, like they used to do in older books. Isn't "lorica squamata" used to describe scale armor ?

Cinna, thanks for the photos So, sometimes they simply added another deck or partial decks for men to hide under...cool.

~Theo