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03-22-2004, 09:43 PM

Just wondering, an optio in a segmentata given awards like a torc...where would he put it? Makes you wonder if even an optio wore a segmentata at all. Has anyone seen a torc or other award on a segmented legionary? Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

Nathan Ross · 03-22-2004, 10:15 PM

Matt - I asked a question about the wearing of torcs (torques?) a while ago but nobody seemed to have an answer . I'm curious as to why you stress that the optio would have to be wearing segmentata for this to be a mystery - how would he wear a torc if he were wearing hamata? Any reason why a torc would not be worn around the neck, or is it the 'two torcs worn on a sling' that you're curious about?

Crispvs · 03-23-2004, 01:26 AM

Why do we assume that phalerae and torcs were normally worn with armour at all? I can only think of two depictions of soldiers wearing decorations: Gnaeus Musius from Mainz, who appears to be wearing several layers, none of them identifiable as armour, under his phalerae, and Q. Sertorius Festus from Verona, who is wearing scale but no belt, along with what has been identified as a civic crown, suggesting that he is not dressed for war, despite the armour. It has often been suggested that many Roman soldiers owned special parade items in the form of crests, special tunics and staves. Could military decorations not similarly have been worn on special occasions rather than in battle. It might be nice if you portray a centurio to wear your phalerae to impress the crowds, but does that guarantee that that particular combination of equipment is correct. It may be worth noting that the majority of depictions of palerae, armilliae and torcs do not associate them with equipment. 
 
Crispvs

03-23-2004, 02:48 AM

Nathan - Yeah, I was referring to that leather strap harness commonly seen worn by centurions. I have also seen the optio of the ESG wear a similar harness, minus phalerae. Granted, this is likely more of a parade environment, rather than battle. 
 
Crispus - From the book "Hadrians Wall in the time of the Romans" by Ronald Embleton and Frank Graham: 
 
"The decorations awarded to soldiers of the rank of centurion and below were torcs, armillae (bracelets) and phalerae (embossed discs). Higher officers recieved hastae purae (small silver spears), vexilla (flags) and coronae (Crowns). 
 
You both are on to something about occasion. But this still raises the issue: 
 
If on parade or review, and a centurion wearing his mail wears his decorations, what of other ranks wearing them with segmentata? This is an important issue...for surely it has happened. 
Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

Uwe Bahr · 03-23-2004, 12:05 PM

Crispus, 
 
I haven't it by the hand, but I remember an episode that Ross Cowan quotes in his Warrior 71 (Roman Legionary 58 BC - AD 69). During the battle of Munda a brave Centurio fell in front of his own rank and file whereupon it came to a hard fight between his own men and their adversaries who were going to strip the corpse off his decorations. 
 
I was surprised too, but it seems to document that decorations were even worn in battle. 
 
Uwe

Nathan Ross · 03-23-2004, 08:42 PM

Uwe - could you find the reference for that quote about Munda? I'm presuming it was from Caesar's own commentary, but can't find it. It would seem fairly conclusive that 'decorations' were worn in battle, but how definite is the translation in this case? Could it refer to the actual armour and equipment of the centurion (most likely of high quality), for example? 
 
Perhaps a silly question, but how sure are we that centurions did not wear segmentata? I know that all the stelae portraits of centurions show mail or scale when armour is shown at all, but how many stelae show segmentata anyway? Or is there some other evidence for this? 
 
Second possibly silly question - these 'harnesses' for decorations: how accurate are the reconstructions worn by reenactors etc? They are presumably based on the stelae again, but are they supported by any other evidence, or is it just a case of 'creating something that does the job and looks right'? 
 
If our current conception of these 'harnesses' is based on the idea that centurions only wore mail, might it be that a different sort of 'harness' could just as easily be worn with segmentata? 
 
About these torcs - as I understand it, they were commonly awarded to ranker legionaries as a basic 'medal' for valour. If only one was awarded, I see no reason why it should not be worn around the neck - which is how the Gauls originally wore theirs. The problem comes when two are awarded - in which case the sort of fabric sling around the neck suggested on the stelae would seem to be the answer. This could surely be worn just as easily with segmentata as with mail, as the sling is close to the neck and not affected by shoulder armour. Another band around the chest linking the two torcs could be used to secure them in place. I'm not sure how well this would work in practice, but it was surely not beyond the bounds of Roman ingenuity!

Crispvs · 03-23-2004, 10:43 PM

Just a small point about centuriones and mail. Of the five first century stele which show images of centuriones or their equipment (Manius Caelius, Marcus Favonius Facilis, Quintus Sertorius Festus, Titus Callidius Severus and Marcus Petronius Classicus), Caelius and Facilis both wear mail, Festus wears and Severus' stele shows scale, and Classicus' stele does not show body armour. Personally I feel that centuriones, as experienced soldiers (most of them anyway), probably had the freedom to choose their own preferred type of armour. They were also paid enough to (probably) be able to afford to have armour made to order. As each of the three min types of armour (hamata, squamata and segmentata) has its own particular set of strengths and weaknesses I believe that some centuriones at least are likely to have chosen segmentata (with its good deflective quality to balance its propensity for broken fittings), whilst some others chose mail or scale. I think that to try to deduce the equipment of thousands of individuals from two fifths of a total sample of only five is at best hopeful and at worst .... 
 
Crispvs

03-23-2004, 10:47 PM

True. But what else do we go on? Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

Uwe Bahr · 03-24-2004, 07:15 AM

Nathan, 
 
in his book from Osprey's Warrior Series Nr. 71 Ross Cowan describes the following event during the fighting against the Pompeians at Munda (45 BC): 
 
"When it was observed that our men were giving more ground than it was usual, two centurions from Legio V crossed the river (Salsum) and restored the battle line. As they drove the superior numbers of enemy back displaying exceptional courage ... one of them succumbed to a heavy volley of missiles discharged from higher ground. His fellow centurion now began an unequal battle, and when he found himself completely surrounded he retreated but lost his footing. As the brave centurion fell many of the enemy rushed forward to strip him of his decoration." ('Caesar', Spanish War, 23) 
 
Greets Uwe

03-24-2004, 08:08 AM

Unfortunately, it's a corrupt passage. Another translation renders it: 
 
The other continued the combat for some time, but seeing himself in danger of being surrounded, endeavored to make good his retreat, but stumbled and fell. His death being known, the enemy crowded together in still greater numbers, upon which our cavalry passed the river, and drove them back to their intrenchments... 
 
No mention of decorations there; the translator has ducked the issue of the corrupt bit. 
 
The Latin is: 
 
<huius concidentis temporis aquari> fortis insignia cum complures adversariorum concursum facerent... 
 
INSIGNIA is the key word; unfortunately this can mean "badges of office", "uniform" or "decorations"; so using it as evidence that centurions wore decorations into battle is debatable, I'm afraid. 
 
Shaun

03-24-2004, 10:52 AM

Good point Shaun, however the tenor of the passage, with its emhasis on 'virtus'/courage and the centurion's sacrifice, and that of following chapters (i.e. the duel and possible marks of distintion on the shields at 25 and the award of 'torques' at 26) suggests that 'insignia' does refer to military decorations, rather than symbols of rank. Perhaps not actual dona militaris, but equipment which has been adorned with symbols of dona. 
See Ramsay MacMullen, 'The Legion as a Society', Historia 33 (1984), 447, who cites Arrian Tactica 34.2 for helmets being richly decorated 'according to rank or military skill.'

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