the use of the drum - military cadence

[Magnus]

Well, that would certainly help settle things!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It is certainly how I read it , anyway, but there are many who disagree, as you have possibly noticed! :lol:

[M. Demetrius]

I'm in the IN STEP camp. I can't prove it, but it's just the best way to move a bunch of ranks and files around in an organized manner, or march very far in formation.

[Wander]

Getting back to the drumming question: I saw drummers for General Miles Gloriosus in A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. Isn't that primary source material? I have it on DVD...

[Praefectusclassis]

(Playing devil's advocate) Why does it need to be `in step´? It seems clear to me that what Caesar wants to convey is the threat of a formation coming steadily forward, irresistible legions and all. I think "in acie certo gradu legiones accedere" could be translated as "...the legions steadily moving forward in formation"

Always be very careful that you're not reading into the sources what you'd like to read.

[Epictetus]

Here is what H.J. Edwards in the Loeb translation has:

When the Gauls (whose plans in all their self-confidence had been reported to Caesar) suddenly saw the legions in their formation advancing upon them in regular step as in line of battle (*), they drew up their force in front of their camp, but - either because they felt the risk of a struggle, or because of the suddenness of our arrival, or because they waited to see our plan - did not move from the higher ground.

* Or perhaps instructas velut in acie should be taken together, "formed as in line of battle." In this case the Gauls mistook the agmen quadratum for acies

It looks like Edwards had a question of interpretation as well.

[L C Cinna]

Sorry, just to make clear I understand you correctly there:

So you (or the translator in this case) say that this could also be interpreted as: the legions were in a marching formation which appeared to the Gauls as if they were already in a battle formation?

Another point would be that my Stowasser also says that "certus" means determined as well.. So could this also be interpreted as "in a determined step"? Don't know if this phrase exists in English but in German we have the equivalent of "entschlossenen Schrittes".

[Epictetus]

So you (or the translator in this case) say that this could also be interpreted as: the legions were in a marching formation which appeared to the Gauls as if they were already in a battle formation?

Yes, I believe so. (Although it is dangerous to interpret the interpreter! :wink: )

I think that Edwards interpreted it as “in step,â€

[Susanna]

It is a very modern thought that rhythm needs percussion badly.

The aulos was played by the Greeks mostly in the army (IF instruments have been used), which was a double pipe rather then a flute. The also sang and used the salpinx.

The Romans sang, used cornu, bucina and tuba and there are archaeological remains of opitio-staffs with bells inside.

That´s it in the army basically, not drums.
The only drums we can proof for civil use are frame-drums.

[L C Cinna]

Always the same with those Romans...they could have saved us so much time if they'd bothered to give a nice description like:

When the Gauls suddenly saw the legions in their formation advancing upon them in regular step to the commands of the centuriones as in line of battle, and the legionaries in their white/red/blue/whatever tunics (*), they drew up their force in front of their camp, ....

(*)note of 3rd century editor Cassius Dio: Caesar's legionaries wore all maille and scale, not like the antesignani(these are troops which...) of the periode after Caesar's death which wore segmentata (the rest continued...blablabla)which was introduced by... in... because of... which is nowadays slowly abandoned because of reason xyz

:lol:

[Peroni]

and there are archaeological remains of optio-staffs with bells inside.

Any details of these Susanna? (anybody?)

[Graham Sumner]

Hi

Just reviving this old thread. I was searching for clothing and textile sources and just as you do came across the following reference in the Loeb edition 1 of Selected Papyri.

It was in a document regarding the sale of a house. Amongst the named witnesses was one "Tlous, drummer of the numerus" P.Lond. 1722. page 89.

Sadly the date of the document was A.D 573 so I guess there will be those out there who will see this as evidence only for drums in the Byzantine army but not the Roman. :roll:

Graham.

[Susanna]

Hi Graham,

well, it is of most interest which word (original Greek) has been used for drum.

In the 6th cent. the words for musical instruments often do not mean
the same than cent. before. So the translation already can
hold a mistake.

Greetz,
Susanna

[Graham Sumner]

which word (original Greek) has been used for drum.



????????

Hope that helps.

Graham.

[M. Demetrius]

Does that transliterate to tympanas?